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Post by hallg on Jul 19, 2015 15:07:05 GMT
Dear Moth Fans,
I've managed to buy BM799 a once-quite-famous composite Moth from a secret location for an undisclosed sum. I've been working on the boat for the first time today and have a problem for which I need your advice:
The long and short of it is that the centreboard is too wide for the case.
It looks like the right board, but is about an eighth of an inch plus too wide for the case - it won't go in from above, and will only go in so far from below.
I'm guessing that the case has been rebuilt at some time and made slightly too narrow, or that I have the wrong board for the boat.
I think the only feasible solution short of an expensive rebuild is to sand all of the paint off the board, and then sufficient of the wood itself to make it fit. However, I thought it would post the problem on here to see if anyone had a better idea, or a range of spare centreboards of various thicknesses from which I could buy a replacement!
I'm interested to hear from anyone who knows the boat too, and to find out more of her history - I know that she once won the Nationals.
Thanks for any sensible advice you can give - the boat seems in good condition generally, and is dripping with Harken blocks / lightweight gear - must have been well-cherished in its day.
Best Regards,
Gavin
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Post by old grey fox on Jul 19, 2015 20:25:36 GMT
Dear Moth Fans, I've managed to buy BM799 a once-quite-famous composite Moth from a secret location for an undisclosed sum. I've been working on the boat for the first time today and have a problem for which I need your advice: The long and short of it is that the centreboard is too wide for the case. It looks like the right board, but is about an eighth of an inch plus too wide for the case - it won't go in from above, and will only go in so far from below. I'm guessing that the case has been rebuilt at some time and made slightly too narrow, or that I have the wrong board for the boat. I think the only feasible solution short of an expensive rebuild is to sand all of the paint off the board, and then sufficient of the wood itself to make it fit. However, I thought it would post the problem on here to see if anyone had a better idea, or a range of spare centreboards of various thicknesses from which I could buy a replacement! I'm interested to hear from anyone who knows the boat too, and to find out more of her history - I know that she once won the Nationals. Thanks for any sensible advice you can give - the boat seems in good condition generally, and is dripping with Harken blocks / lightweight gear - must have been well-cherished in its day. Best Regards, Gavin |
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Post by old grey fox on Jul 19, 2015 20:48:50 GMT
Hi,
The boat was built by my very good friend Brian Skinner and was the only composite that he built. It was sailed by Tony Cooper to Nationals win in 1990 the year that it was built.Approx 5 years ago Gary Tompkins owned it and I remember him sailing it at a Frampton Somerville and I he sold it on to a young sailor at Desborough SC shortly after that.
I would doubt if the centreboard case has been rebuilt and the board you have is not original, unless it has several coats of paint.
I will ask Brian if he can remember what size he board he fitted as he only ever made one width for all the wooden boats he built. He spends most of his time now in Northumberland so he will not be back in Norfolk until about 10th August when I will ask him. I am currently using his workshop to tidy up 730 which I bought from Tony Thresher a couple of years ago, and I believe he still has a couple of original wooden boards laying about some where.
Let me know in a few weeks time if you are still struggling with the board.
Regards,
Barry
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Post by oldgreyfox on Jul 20, 2015 21:38:21 GMT
Hi, The boat was built by my very good friend Brian Skinner and was the only composite that he built. It was sailed by Tony Cooper to Nationals win in 1990 the year that it was built.Approx 5 years ago Gary Tompkins owned it and I remember him sailing it at a Frampton Somerville and I he sold it on to a young sailor at Desborough SC shortly after that. I would doubt if the centreboard case has been rebuilt and the board you have is not original, unless it has several coats of paint. I will ask Brian if he can remember what size he board he fitted as he only ever made one width for all the wooden boats he built. He spends most of his time now in Northumberland so he will not be back in Norfolk until about 10th August when I will ask him. I am currently using his workshop to tidy up 730 which I bought from Tony Thresher a couple of years ago, and I believe he still has a couple of original wooden boards laying about some where. Let me know in a few weeks time if you are still struggling with the board. Regards, Barry |
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Post by oldgreyfox on Jul 20, 2015 21:40:39 GMT
Slight error...oops....it was Toby Cooper who won that years Nationals. Tony Cooper is another very good sailor who is based at King George.
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Post by hallg on Jul 20, 2015 22:16:54 GMT
Thanks so much for this information Barry, very kind of you indeeed. I greatly appreciate you help and advice.
A frustrating day today in the quest to bring 799 back to life. I think that you must be right about the board - after spending a good deal of time removing all paint (there was lots) and even renewing my aquaintance with a wood plane (from O level woodwork in about 1982)....the board is still far too wide.
I've had a good look at the case now - the front section has definitely been repaired at some time, but I don't think that the repair has made the case more narrow (perhaps fractionally so, but not by much). The board comes nowhere near to going in by more than one third of it's length however which way I try - so I think you must be right that this is not the correct board.
I reckon the board I have was originally about 2.7 cm in width at the widest point, and that a board more like 2.2 cm in width would be needed (I will measure it properly tomorrow) - does that sound like a typical width for a BM?. I don't think I can accurately re-shape the existing board to that width, so at the moment I don't know quite what to do aside from try to find a replacement board, or have one made (ouch). My hopes of getting her onto the water for the Nationals are unfortunately fading...
Aside from this problem, the rest of 799 looks in really good shape. She's been stored inside for a long time and is (in my view) a beautiful thing well worth preserving. I will put some pictures up soon (when I work out how to do so) so that everyone can take a look.
Thanks again for the information - I don't suppose Mr Skinner could be tempted to bring her back to her full former glory?
Best Regards,
Gavin
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Post by Fast Freddie on Jul 21, 2015 7:59:35 GMT
Take the board to a local carpenter/joiner and get them to pass it thro a planer[provided any screws etc are taken out first]!
Job done in 2 minutes 1
Then blend in the profile and slap some paint on ....bags of time to get it done before the Nationals.
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Post by hallg on Jul 21, 2015 9:35:52 GMT
Fast Freddie, you are a genuis. I am going out right now, armed with my beautiful wife and my ropey old centreboard to see what can be done! Thank you. Gavin
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Post by hallg on Jul 21, 2015 17:22:06 GMT
Well, despite my lovely wife pretending to be interested in planing machines and old boats, the board would not fit the available machine. Good idea though, and led me to a friend of the carpenter who hired me a powerful band-sanding-machine. The board is a good bit thinner now, and roughly the correct length, but a cloud of red-sawdust is now enveloping much of the St Albans area. Can it be made to work? Perhaps....but I think it's going to take a while.
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on Jul 21, 2015 23:48:33 GMT
Can you measure the width of the slot from the outside (hill side) ... I know you've already skimmed the board .. but am just interested in whether or not the case has been messed with. 270mm does sound like it's not the right board. Any chance of a photo of the board (I may be able to tell from the shape) or maybe Gary Tomkins can comment on the board.
Also .. I can offer a few corrections to some of the above .... 799 was commissioned for me, in 1990. If memory serves, it was on of maybe 4 or 5 composite boats built by Brian. 798 (Grey Dagger) was also composite, and was used to win the Nationals in 1989. 799 was one of the only moths I've seen built with a centre mainsheet track and traveller (be interested to know if it still has that). The cockpit side tank width was designed to make it semi-sinking when capsized (they were narrow) and also had self draining tubes running from the aft of the cockpit to the transom - which actually worked if you filled the boat up with water and then went on a screaming reach. It was also fitted out with a Neddlespar "black tip" mast - which actually turned out be be a really good rig. Bethca was also a bit "lardy" even when new - she tipped the scales at 48.5kg (without centre plate)... but she was very stiff. The combination of the mast and the centre mainsheet track made her one of the quickest setups I've ever used upwind, in a blow.
Anyhow, hope you can bring her back to life and get some real enjoyment from her.
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on Jul 21, 2015 23:49:35 GMT
Oh and another minor correction... I'm not based at King George. For my sins I have always been a Broxbourne man :-)
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Post by hallg on Jul 22, 2015 7:24:15 GMT
Thanks so much for that information - I wonder if 799 is the only Skinner composite Moth left alive?
I can see now that the board supplied was not from a Moth at all - it was way too large in every dimension. 799 is in a garage a mile or two from my home with no mains power, so I've been working on the board at home, then taking it there to check. The external appature for the board seems completely un-messed with, and I've made the board thin enough to fit. I now need to shape the board so it can pivot, fit into the case and works effectively enough to sail. My impression is that it's going to be quite small - the case itself is small.
I think that 799 is really original. She still has the self-draining system and the centre mainsheet track. She still has a completely black mast which I think must be original, and the lightest alloy boom I've ever encountered. The original "Betcha" stickers (?) are still on the starboard side. The hull looks in good shape too, still all in blue which I think was original.
My aim is to keep this boat for a long time. I want to get her sailing again, using my home-made centreboard if possible, and would love to enter in the Nationals - I don't care if I finish in last place, I just think it would be great fun. If I can't make the centreboard work, I will just keep her indoors for a while whilst searching for a replancement. At the end of the season, I might well send her off for some professional restoration to keep her going for many years, and a new centreboard if I can find someone willing to do the work (I'm not yet au-fait with who can do such things). I know that it's economic madness to do this, but I love this boat, and would like to put her into perfect condition if I can.
I can't work out how to post photos onto this site, but I have some on my facebook page already, and will be posting more as I go along. I keep the page quite private, but anyone from Moth circles who wants a look is welcome - please just send me a friend request (Gavin Hall, St Albans should find me).
Dashing off now to find a jig-saw.... Thanks to everyone who has contributed information / advice and encouragment so far!
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Post by moth868 on Jul 22, 2015 16:44:41 GMT
Hi halig,
I live about 10 miles away from you in Tewin,
I have a plastic Skinner, and a spare centre board which you are welcome to borrow. I am assuming Brian used the same dimensiions for the slot in all his boats. I also have a full size profile of the conventional moth board if you want to try your hand at making one. However the down side is I am about to go on holiday, so not around from 24 July to 8 August. In case you haven't yet read it, there is a lot of information on moth boards in Boat Advice and Projects.
Paul
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Post by pegasus on Jul 22, 2015 19:26:04 GMT
Gavin
Are you bringing 799 to the Nationals. I note you were looking for a boat earluer to attend
Simon
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Post by hallg on Jul 22, 2015 20:44:51 GMT
Paul - thank you SO much for that kind offer. I would very much like to borrow your board please at some point when you come back so that I can see what shape it is supposed to be! Thanks for the guidance re. the other board related items on the website - I can see now that it's possible to have a new one made at some point.
I have now managed to make my homemade board fit. I'm going to finish it tomorrow, varnish and fit the thing - I know it's not perfect, but hope for the best!
Next job is probably to fit a new slot gasket (nightmare in my view) and then work out how all of the highly expensive and brand-new-looking control line systems work (photos coming soon). I will probably take her to my sailing club at that point and put her in the water - quite a frightening prospect and I'm hoping that she doesn't leak...
Simon - I would like to bring her to the Nationals assuming I can get her ready in time, that she sails OK and no horrible problems are uncovered; it might be that water pours in from somewhere, which could scupper my plans. I can't manage four days away though - how many races / days do I need to complete to get an overall finish position?
Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest in my boat and posted here - I'm very grateful to you for your interest and support. Best Wishes, Gavin
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