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Post by New Boy on Oct 11, 2013 11:11:15 GMT
Hi going back several posts. I am From England but would vote for Wales. its a great place. now 7 to 4 New B
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Post by rupert on Oct 14, 2013 14:25:09 GMT
I'm not sure you could run the classic Moths with the old sail plan - most people would have to go out and buy a new sail specially for it, and that is unlikely, though R&J made a lovely one for 700. Also, most would like to compete as best they can with the newer boats in the main event, too. I always had an old boat, with an old (but "new" shape) sail, and won Open meetings at several places, so I'm not sure the hull shapes have as much effect as implied here. The boats being new, with decent, working controls, a new sail and a helm who points the boat in the right direction will have far more to do with it.
Maybe the Classic trophy should have the option for people to say "my hull has been altered to make it a newer style shape, therefore I won't put myself up for qualifying for this trophy". I would imagine this would affect between 0 and 2 boats at any Nats.
Whatever you do, I'd think that sailed equally, a boat in the 700's is likely beat a boat in the 500's, which will beat a boat in the 300's. So maybe the prizes should be for classics, which are simply by sail number, and vintage, for even older boats still sailing as they were way back when. Maybe a 1970 cut off for that one - boats from the 50's and 60's hayday slugging it out in period dress, as it were.
As for the "it isn't a one design" arguement, it is closer to being a one design than it is to being a development class. The measurements for hull shape haven't changed, it is just that the tolerances are pretty vast by modern standards. The class voted decades ago for the weight reduction and sail shape change - it wasn't even thought of as recent 20 years ago, so it is hardly surprising that boats built to the old weight aren't competitive. Lasers of that age aren't, either.
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Post by memoryman on Oct 15, 2013 2:50:26 GMT
Rupert, I tend to agree. I don't really know what difference a carbon mast or shaped foil(centreboard) make. I do think the lightweight new shape hulls plane far easier than the old hulls and this could make a big difference on open water. But perhaps it's just the perception that 'new' boats are significantly faster than old boats that puts old boats at the back of the garage. I started a thread about restoring 326 after I bought her and I'm absolutely staggered by the number of 'hits' - please excuse my terminology but I'm not a 'techy' - the number of views is approaching 5000. Then look at the success of the CVRDA. Old boats are popular. Perhaps, by making allowances in the PY system for the older boats, the BMBA could tap into this popularity and increase membership as a result.
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Post by rupert on Oct 16, 2013 8:02:08 GMT
I'm really hoping to see 326 at a cvrda event soon - or at the Whitefriars British Moth Open in April?
Getting several boats of that age coming to an event means not really having to worry about where you come in the main fleet. However, even if coming as the only Vintage boat can be a worthwhile experience, just in a different way. You won't get the main prizes, but you do have the pleasure of having the most talked about boat at an event, and a delight to sail - and we did do an old boat prize at WSC last year. Won by 733, I think it was - almost new by my standards.
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Post by abby on Oct 16, 2013 9:43:14 GMT
so rupert, do you have a date in April for us yet??
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Post by colin on Oct 16, 2013 10:01:06 GMT
A little history perhaps might help with the question of hull shape. My first Moth was 504 build circa 1960’s and was a classic river shape with maximum rocker and dead rise. I raced it at Weybridge SC on the Thames and did fairly well. When I started to do open meetings on open water, it soon became apparent that the setup was far from ideal. With a lot of help and advice from seasoned Moth racers, I slowly sorted the boat and the way I sailed it. In 2003 I won the National Championship with it. So does hull shape matter? Yes, but not that much, attention to detail, preparation, setup and sailing technique make the real difference. My first boat was Merlin Rocket 128, which I sailed some 50 years ago. The difference in hull design between the old letterbox against the modern is enormous - this is not the case with the Moth.
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Post by jonathantwite on Oct 16, 2013 14:01:21 GMT
Memoryman - come to any open where I will be sailing. I'll be in a fairly new boat, but you will have a better-than-evens chance of beating me in any boat of any age with any sail...
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Post by memoryman on Oct 16, 2013 21:37:36 GMT
First, as a Welshman, I must have a quiet word with 'New Boy'! If there were 8 Englishmen and 4 Welshmen and one of the Englishmen thought that Wales was best, surely the vote would be 7 to 5 for England not 7 to 4 or are you suggesting that the Englishman would abstain(lol). Next you'll be telling everyone that England can play rugby.(rotflol - Rolling on the floor laughing out loud). The next thing is that no-one told me that boats are like buses - you see nothing for years and then two turn up. A sixty year old MR, a Proctor Mk12, whispered 'buy me, buy me' so what could I do. My back drive now consists of the Merlin, the Moth, a '72 Scimitar and a '77 Spitfire not forgetting the '44 Fordson and the '41 John Deere tractors. I'm beginning to think I live in a time warp. The advantage is that I now have a foot in both camps - a development class and a one design class so should be able to talk nonsense about both and upset everyone. The joys of being a grumpy old man. I would like to attend some of the 'opens' next year as it would be nice to meet others and put names to faces. I also promised the previous owner of 326 that I would send him a picture of her racing. However, I must admit that I'm drawn by the CVRDA. These are the boars - sorry, spelling mistake - boats that I grew up with. The majority are wood and everyone knows that wooden boats talk to you. It's also about having something in common, to know others problems and to know the work they have put in to get their boats to look like works of art. Well, enough of my nonsense. I must try and find where SWMBO hid the whisky and my rose tinted specs then I might just have one more look at the back drive before going to bed!
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Post by jonathantwite on Oct 17, 2013 8:54:24 GMT
Just so you are under no illusion, there are a lot of wooden moths on the circuit, indeed a lot of the National Champions were wooden. I think most of us would like wood, but not the effort required for upkeep.
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Post by rupert on Oct 21, 2013 13:45:51 GMT
so rupert, do you have a date in April for us yet?? Sent you an email to the secretary@email address a few days ago. Ist weekend in April, coaching on the Sat, racing on the Sun.
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Post by abby on Oct 21, 2013 18:56:44 GMT
Thank you Rupert. I will put it in the calender and see who I can get in to coach - may try Robbie C if he did it for the Lightnings maybe he will come along for us. Cheers Abby
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Post by rupert on Oct 22, 2013 7:26:40 GMT
Hi Abby, I'll use the fixtures@next time - just got a message from Simon saying he had forwarded it on!
I don't know if Paul has booked Robbie yet for the Lightnings - he could find himself in demand!
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