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Post by jonathantwite on Sept 26, 2013 20:38:19 GMT
Just saying that most technical articles argue that in medium wind reaching the sail should be a twist free as possible - twisting enough only to match the apparent wind change with height. Modern material sails allow the twist to be controlled with little use of the kicker and so not flattening the sail.
Re Lasers, most people realise very quickly that under the surface boats are not as similar as people think - indeed a LOT of the top sailors believe that the Australian boats are quicker and get theirs imported from there...
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Post by the black pig on Sept 26, 2013 23:09:27 GMT
re the point, are claridge moths cheap? well that depends on loads of relative things, but off hand( and i do stand to be corrected) i cannot think of any new F.R.P. sailing dinghy that costs less than £5000. also if you compare it to the price of a boat like a solo, new price about £7000+, i think it looks quite good. so to sum up, are new moths cheap? probably not. are they very very good value? definitely yes
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Post by memoryman on Sept 27, 2013 2:22:20 GMT
Thanks for the comments Pie-eyed, they're much appreciated. Just a couple of points! I always get a little worried when people talk of democracy. If we are talking 'one boat, one vote' then I would agree with you, However, if we are talking about majority decisions taken at AGM's where possibly 30 people turn up, all of whom are likely to have a biased opinion, we have a situation where an Association can be hijacked by 16 people. I'm sure you see where I'm coming from. This has happened in the political arena and I would hesitate in calling it democratic. Secondly, I have always believed that a fast boat is 80% helm and 20% boat. I started sailing at Chippenham in a Graduate and soon changed to a Moth when I noticed everyone else had one! There was a 'young wipper snapper' there who could make any boat fly. If ever there was a problem with your boat the reply was 'go and see Roger'. They were happy days. I remember we would pack up the boats and visit Shearwater, Saltford and Bradford-on-Avon. That seemed to be the limit of our travelling then. All the clubs had good Moth fleets. It was these memories that prompted me to get a Moth again but after 40 years it has all changed. The one good thing is the CVRDA. I'm sure 326 and myself will find a home there. As for 326, I will attempt to keep her as was. She has a lot of original brass fittings which will be re-used and 3 sails of varying ages - one which still has reefing ties. She may well be over-weight but not as much as I am! - so she won't be undergoing surgery. As far as performance goes - well, as long as people say 'wow' when I take her cover off, I shall be happy. I think it is important that the youngsters of today can still look at what is now history. Sorry, but I'm still trying to think of the surname of the young lad at Chippenham - I can't and I'm at my witts end!
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Post by colin on Sept 30, 2013 9:28:06 GMT
Dear Memoryman,
Not sure I do understand where you are coming from. All opinion is biased, that’s why it is called opinion – there is no ‘correct’ with regard to one persons opinion as against another’s.
I cannot think of a better venue than the Nationals to hold the AGM. It is the biggest collective gathering of active Moth sailors’. They have paid there membership fees and therefore have full voting rights – they are the BMBA.
Proposals are published in advance so that members who are not attending the Nationals can and do attend to have there say and vote. Most of the ‘radical’ changes such as the move to carbon rigs had a long gestation period. It was a big topic of conversation at open meetings, Nationals and club level over many years. Generally, there is nothing arbitrary about these changes; they are driven by those who have a passion for what they sail and care about the class.
I have done all the committee posts over the last 25 years or so and yes on one or two occasions I have not been convinced of the merits of a particular proposal but that was the collective decision and one gets on with the job with good grace. As you may well know the root of democracy is demos and kratos (people and power), for better or worse the ‘people’ in this case is the membership, how could it be otherwise? It would be bizarre if the BMBA were hamstrung by an amorphous collection of non-members, boat owning or otherwise.
Regards,
Colin
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Post by memoryman on Oct 3, 2013 0:38:31 GMT
Thanks for the reply Colin. I think we are now well off topic but I think the subject is quite important.
With reference to your first paragraph regarding opinion and bias. For example, say we had 8 English men and 4 Welshmen. The Englishmen all thought, in their opinion, that England was best. On the other hand the Welshmen all thought, in their opinion, that Wales was best. If you asked the group to vote on which country was the best England would win 8 votes to 4. This is because the group is biased towards the English. If you took a sample of twelve men from Wales you would get a different result. It all depends on how you select your group. So it is not the opinion that is biased but the group. I would suggest that if you asked the group who attend the AGM if they wanted carbon masts the answer would be ‘Of course’. If you then wrote to a similar number of club sailors who race their boats on a Saturday afternoon and rarely venture further than their club I would suggest the answer would be ‘no’. It’s quite possible that the two groups have different opinions based on their own particular use of the boats. There is nothing wrong with their opinions, it’s just the way the group is selected. Now assume that for the General Election, the government decreed that, because the country is governed from London, all votes must be cast in London. I’m sure that the both of us would be complaining to our MP that we were effectively being denied our vote because we were unable to travel to London simply to vote. It doesn’t take much to move from this scenario to one where a limited number of people at a National sailing event get to vote at the AGM, when the majority of members are unable to attend and cast their vote. Everyone is a member of the association but the fact that one has to travel to vote means that the group who attend the Nationals and hence the AGM are possibly biased. It is not just those that attend the AGM that have paid their subscriptions and have voting rights, it’s all those that are unable to attend as well, except that they are being denied their voting rights. Just because people don’t attend the AGM doesn’t mean that they don’t have a passion for their Moths. I agree with your closing comments. I believe the word democracy is from the Greek ‘demos’ meaning people and ‘Kratos’ meaning power. One could say ’Look where it’s got the Greeks’ but that’s another subject(lol). The ’people’ in our context are the members of the association - all the members, not simply those who attend the AGM. There are approximately 150 boats on the fleet listing and about 190 members of this forum. I have no idea of the membership of the association but assume it is probably some where between these two numbers. With current technology it would not be difficult to post AGM proposals requiring a vote to all association members for them to vote as they see fit and return the reply. Votes could be added up and then the AGM could ratify the decision of the full membership. Surely this would be a truly democratic process in which all members participated. Could this be the British Moth Spring!
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Post by colin on Oct 3, 2013 21:59:45 GMT
Oh, I wish we had 170 members the actual number from my last list is 64. There were 29 entries at this year’s Nationals/AGM - so just under 50% turnout. Many political elections would be happy to see that sort of turnout.
As for the Greeks, it was only a very small proportion of the population who had the vote, so no vote for women, slaves, resident aliens and so on. Continuing the Greek theme, the AGM functions rather like their Agora, it is the opportunity to discuss in an open forum that is its strength. Yes, we could embrace the digital age but it would be a very dull affair.
Perhaps you should start your own association and embrace the unrepresented, after all the Moth as a class has morphed all over the world from its North American spawning grounds (not sure moths’ spawn).
Colin
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Post by memoryman on Oct 4, 2013 9:34:26 GMT
Colin - my apologies. I should have realised a lot of water has passed under the bridge since I actively sailed a Moth. I will try and prise the rose coloured spectacles from my weather beatened face! I thought it would be a simple matter of buying a Moth, joining a club and everything would be as it was 40 years ago. Instead, I joined a club and when I say I have a Moth everyone says 'What's that?' Clearly times have been hard. I guess 326 and myself will meander between the west country ponds and rivers, occasionally being swamped by the bow waves of plastic washing up bowls with an 'M' on their gigantic see-through sails full of adverts, as they scream past on a broad reach into the sunset. Now, where did I put my rose coloured spectacles?
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Post by jonathantwite on Oct 5, 2013 0:10:21 GMT
You'll be glad to hear then that the AGM this year voted to ban all advertising on moths (except for BMBA and where required to enter an event).
As for vintage 'sections', I am a great fan - I sail one of the first GRP National 12s and although we are not classified vintage, that is our speed. A vintage section needs active people to turn up to events and promote themselves. Then other people who would like to look after older boats would be more encouraged to do so.
There is actually a Vintage trophy at the Nationals, it was won this year by my boat 733 by default - it was the only boat old enough to qualify - but it is certainly not a good advert for vintage moths (firstly it is GRP...). Last year there was a very nice boat 'Poli' going to events, but it was sold to a new owner.
Maybe this is your chance to build the vintage fleet up and get some more interest in the older Moths
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Post by rupert on Oct 7, 2013 19:23:47 GMT
Hi, as an ex Moth owner, I'm not a frequent visitor to the site, but as commodore of the cvrda I'm please to see it mentioned here!
All Moths built during or before 1985 are welcome at events. By the nature of the beast, earlier boats will get both more attention from other sailors (after all, we are old boat nuts) and a better handicap - assuming they haven't been modernized out of all proportion. The handicaps I saw mentioned earlier are guides - there are so many variations possible. The old 110 handicap from the late 60's/early 70's reflects the boat before the weight loss and before the long top batten with the extra sail area came in. I found when sailing 533 at events that 110 was just silly with even an old "new" sail, and 107 was a bit better, though on somewhere like Bristol Docks it was still far too kind. With other Moth sailors having done events recently in boats that are lighter than the old minimum weight, with a nicer sail, we have gone to 106 for 80's boats, I think. Mind you, if it is an old glass boat, getting down to the old min weight could be an issue!
Building a Vintage fleet within the class would be an excellent idea, and one that Merlins, N12's and others have done very well. I'm sure you would be welcome at both British Moth and cvrda events, so if you were basing it around the South West, you would get plenty of places nearby to meet with only short drives.
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Post by memoryman on Oct 8, 2013 4:58:15 GMT
The problem as I see it, and excuse me for being controversial, is that BM's still believe they are a one design when they are not. There have been significant changes to the design and the 'old' moth is simply a different boat to the 'new' moth. If it can be accepted that they are different then the problem of comparing the performance, and handicap, of the boats can be addressed. Take, for example, the Merlin Rocket. The thought of cutting and chopping a 1961 Procter Mk12 to try to make it compete with modern designs is sacrilege. They get around the problem, in handicap fleets, by having a handicap that starts at the standard for boats built after 1999 and then increases by 10 for every 5 years prior to 1999 until they get to +90 for boats built before 1954. This system recognises the improvement in performance as time moves on. For vintage racing within the Merlin fleet they simply start with the standard 1000 and then add 40 for cotton sails, deduct 10 for laminated sails, add 40 for a wooden mast, deduct 20 for a carbon mast, deduct 10 if the beam is greater than 5'8" and deduct 20 if it's greater than 6'7". This means that someone who has lovingly cared for his vintage Merlin can still race with others and expect a handicap that is related to the performance of his design. So, let's assume that we all want to increase the number of BM's out racing. We need to accept the differences between the designs and age of the boats. Hulls built to the old weight could be +40, to the old hull shape +40, wood mast +20, carbon mast -20, short top baton +30, etc. There should be no talk of taking your hull to the local boat yard to have the weight reduced and chunks cut out of the hull to give it the modern planing shape. In the eyes of the old boat owner you are simply consigning his boat to the scrap heap. How many Moths are there at the back of peoples garages because the owners no longer see them as competitive and see no point in going to local club events, let alone going to 'opens'. Even more important, how many owners no longer join the BMBA because they believe that the association no longer looks after their interests? Food for thought, perhaps. Anyway, enough of me wittering on. I hope no one has been offended, that's not the intention. Anyone else have any thoughts or am I lone voice!
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Post by abby on Oct 8, 2013 19:17:34 GMT
Ok. When all paid up members get Chrysalis in the post shortly you will see under my Fixtures column an announcement that in 2014 the Somerville will have a companion event, sailed at the same Open Meetings, for 'older boats'. All boats with hull numbesr between 1 and 750 inclusive qualify for this new trophy. We, the committee and I, discussed where the cut-off for qualification should occur.
I look forward, Memoryman, to seeing you on the Somerville circuit next summer. Abby
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Post by MothHombre on Oct 8, 2013 20:39:44 GMT
Ooooh! Tantalisingly close with 755! Sounds a good idea and reflects what some other fleets do without putting too much extra work on the race committees that run our opens. I think thats a sensible way to do it. I look forward to seeing more moths next year on the circuit.
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Post by memoryman on Oct 10, 2013 9:01:20 GMT
I appreciate what the committee has tried to achieve and it is good to know that they recognise there is a problem. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that a differentiation by sail number is workable. There is every chance that pre 751 hulls could have been modified. Surely the problem is that unmodified older boats are uncompetitive when compared to the modern shaped hull. The previous owner of 326 (unmodified old hull, new sail shape) said she had a tendency to 'submarine' on a run. I can't remember the 'old' moths having this problem. I guess it's been created because the additional new sail area at the top of the mast when added to the old shape hull which has the planing qualities of a house brick has only one outcome - the bow goes in! Go back to the old sail plan and the problem disappears. So you have the situation where the old hull with the old sail plan is a cracking little boat. Now, if you had a competition for old shaped hulls with the old shaped sail plan, let's call them 'Classic' Moths, I would happily travel to compete. But I don't think I will travel unless I am certain that I will be competing against similar boats - and a sail number doesn't offer me that certainty. Surely, with the appropriate template, one can see the difference between old and new hull shapes. It's simple enough to tell if the sail has a long or short top baton. Surely it's simple to tell a Classic from a Modern? The CVRDA has shown the interest in older boats and it's possible that this interest could be generated within the BMBA given the right conditions.
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Post by Overoptimistix on Oct 10, 2013 12:03:30 GMT
Add to that: I have 568 with an old shape sail that has a full top batten retro-fitted.
Where would that fit in the definition? I'm not sure when the sail shape was changed, I remember full battens in the eighties, certainly on 584 and 630.
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Post by oldgreyfox on Oct 10, 2013 16:43:52 GMT
According to the 70th Anniversary book the last boat built in 1983 was 795 "The flying pig", although the next boat in the list is 796 built in 1987.Were no boats built between 1984 and 1987, I don't know? I will ask Brian Skinner when I see him as he appears to be the only builder during this period.
On the subject of old boats I always considered open meetings to be an enjoyable social event regardless of how well or badly I did. It's all about fun and competing against others at your level, as I almost always found I was surrounded by the same sailors who were about the same ability as me. That is were I competed knowing full well that I was not likely to beat the top sailors whatever boat I sailed. Tinkering with prizes for old boats is almost impossible and not worth the bother, enjoy your sailing in whatever age boat you sail. OGF
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