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GPS
May 7, 2013 9:49:11 GMT
Post by New Boy on May 7, 2013 9:49:11 GMT
Hi I am trying to get more speed out of ASBO and want to understand what speed gains are made or lost when I pull on the ever increasing bits of string in her. I have seen a couple of GPS devices that measure speed. Clearly there is not a problem with me using these for training. Could someone from the committee tell me if I would be allowed to use them while racing please? I can not see anything in the rules that says they can not be used. I don't want to buy one to find out I cant use it at Opens. Also If there is nothing in the rules that says I cant use them but the Committee feel they should not be used I suggest we add a rule excluding them. I do think it would give an advantage and they are not cheap so it may be better to add a rule now rather than adding further expense to being competitive. I understand the top end of the fleet will think just learn to sail better. For us mid to tail enders I think knowing how much boat speed we had would give us a big boost. It is already possible to buy a little more speed with new sails ,foils etc and this maybe an expense to far for some. We already allow the use of TAC TICS so is there much differance? What does everyone else think? New Boy
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GPS
May 7, 2013 10:00:42 GMT
Post by New Boy on May 7, 2013 10:00:42 GMT
Hi So everyone is clear I dont care either way. If they are class legal I will buy one and if not I wont. I am just looking to the future and thinking about costs to people in the class and to future Moth owners. New Boy
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GPS
May 7, 2013 11:46:24 GMT
Post by the black pig on May 7, 2013 11:46:24 GMT
most classes do not allow them. cannot see any reason why we should be any different.
if it went to a vote. i would vote against them.
regards duncan
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GPS
May 7, 2013 14:21:34 GMT
Post by bertfatal on May 7, 2013 14:21:34 GMT
The Class Rules do not mention them anywhere so therefore they are Class legal. I am prepared to be corrected on this, but I believe that there is no RYA or ISAF blanket ban, they leave it up to the individual classes to decide. They can be declared illegal in NOR's but again if they are not mentioned they are legal. I am tempted to get one for boat tuning but on balance I think they should not be allowed for racing.
Richard K.
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GPS
May 7, 2013 17:16:11 GMT
Post by abby on May 7, 2013 17:16:11 GMT
I have one which I got for the same reason Mark is considering one - and it useful. I assumed that I would probably not be able to use it at the Nationals but it is an assumption based on the fact that a lot of classes ban them. However, what's the difference between something that tells me if I have slowed up etc - and something like a TacTic which has been used by BMBA members in the Nationals? Is this another topic of conversation for the Whitefriars evening?
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GPS
May 7, 2013 19:07:25 GMT
Post by New Boy on May 7, 2013 19:07:25 GMT
Hi Abby a TAC TIC is only a compass, yes they have a digital display and tell you when you are bearing away from the windward mark but it does not always follow that you should tack as other factors come into it. Basically its still down to you to decide whats the best way to go. A hawk burgee can show you the same thing or a ball compass. A GPS is completely different, it does all the above plus tells you your boat speed which allows fine tuning of the rig seating position sail angle etc etc. basically it tells you when you have got the best out of your boat. As I said I don't care either way but would like to point out that they are a performance aid in a much greater way than a TIC TAC is, allowing them will add further costs to sailing a Moth. My opinion is to ban them but as I am lucky enough to be able to buy one then if it is decided that in the future they will remain legal as they are now I will get one. I would think that people that have TAC TICS now would think maybe I should upgrade and be left with an expensive item in their sail bits box and those who have not got the money would feel left behind. TAC TICS have been used for an age lets not get silly and start worrying about them. As I said a GPS is a complete different aid and I think we should consider the future of the class. I know there are other ways of monitoring boat speed so maybe its not just a GPS issue. I think the best way forward it for a proposal to be made to ban the use of any GPS aid and a separate proposal to stop any device that monitors boat speed. What do you all think? I guess I can wait til the Nationals to buy or not buy one. New Boy
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GPS
May 7, 2013 19:35:08 GMT
Post by MothHombre on May 7, 2013 19:35:08 GMT
Another good question Mark and something I had never personally considered.
A quick browse of the internet suggests that there are various types of GPS available and that different classes have responded to the technology in different ways.
There also seems to be debate about how much, if any, people gain by using them. For me the perception that someone using one would be at an advantage over someone who doesn't is a good enough reason to not allow them.
One of the reasons I bought a BM was because you can be a lot more competitive for less money compared to other classes and enjoy some good close racing without spending a great deal of money. I would worry that the more technology allowed and the bigger peoples budgets at the top are, the less appealing our class would be to potential new comers.
Still a good question and it sounds like something worth discussing at Whitefriars (as well as on here of course)!
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GPS
May 8, 2013 13:01:31 GMT
Post by New Boy on May 8, 2013 13:01:31 GMT
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GPS
May 8, 2013 18:01:20 GMT
Post by abby on May 8, 2013 18:01:20 GMT
Having played with the speedpuck a bit now, I am not sure in racing terms that it would offer much of an advantage. Yes it gives me an idea of speed, but there are all the variables, i.e did I just slow down because the wind altered, or that Phantom shadowed me, or.... and HEY look at that! 7 knots on that plane! and then I get distracted by it and miss what is going on around me, go to the wrong mark...etc. It is being useful giving me an idea of where to sit off the wind - Colin sits on the bow, Gary sits to leeward in the middle, I sit in all of these places trying to work out which is best for Lappet - but while I am doing that I am not actually sailing the boat. I don't have a coach available like New Boy and the rest of the Frampton crowd have had, so I needed something. But it will have a limited useful life. Having said that, it is fun on a blasting reach to see the numbers! A little expensive for just that...
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GPS
May 8, 2013 20:33:02 GMT
Post by New Boy on May 8, 2013 20:33:02 GMT
Abby you said enough in your last post to tell me that it does give an advantage. Using it to boat trim off wind would be a great advantage. AS the class does not ban them then you are doing nothing wrong and as it stands can use it at any open unless it is stated in the NOR that they cant be used. There is only one question, are we going to take a vote on the use of them and other devices at the AGM or just leave it alone. New Boy Does anyone else have any thoughts on this
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GPS
May 8, 2013 20:55:35 GMT
Post by pegasus on May 8, 2013 20:55:35 GMT
The problem with new technology is that it creeps up very fast. When our class rules were written compasses were barely being used. Now boats use Tac-Tic's. A GPS used for tuning purposes is no good by itself. How are you going to remember all those little tweaks, where were you sitting?, what was the wind speed?, etc, far too many variables to remember There is a new product out, not saying as I cannot remember its name, but I stumbled across it about 3 weeks ago, and cannot find it again, that also records on a camera all these details.
I believe you are more likely to be distracted by a GPS than gain. From what I see they are more use in cruiser and keelboat racing, in clear open water than on ponds and rivers in 12ft dinghies.
I have used waterproof cameras in the past to record a lot of info and I know Colin has as well for tuning purposes. There are members of Maidenhead SC who actually now use Go Pro's during class racing to improve their performance. Although I think in our SI's for opens state they are excluded.
This is a very big topic and I would suggest to anyone who buys this type of electronic aid be prepared for it being disallowed from certain elements of racing. This is something that is not going to go away but will need to be redressed in the near future. Sadly I wont be at Whitefriars to put my moneys worth in but can be contacted via email with a telephone number if any one wishes to talk to me about it.
What do we ban GPS, Cameras, electronic aids. Don't forget the use of or carrying of any form of telecommunication equipment is banned from a lot of dinghy sailing events, as it is regarded as obtaining an unfair advantage, unless any transmission can be heard by all competitors.
Simon
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GPS
May 8, 2013 21:18:46 GMT
Post by New Boy on May 8, 2013 21:18:46 GMT
Thank you Simon I think this is a chat for the AGM. As you have said there are other devices out there and my reason for bringing this up was to decide as a class in which direction we are going to go with this. Its not just about GPS but about what will come in the future and I would hate to see people spending large sums of money only to have the use of their new toys banned. The wording of any proposal needs to be looked at to cover future developments. As I said at the start I dont care either way but wanted to bring it into the public eye so that we can as a group decide the direction we are gong in regarding this. What people do even after a vote while training is down to them. It would be really good if as many people as possible coild add their thoughts here even if its just to say lets have a vote or leave it alone New Boy
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GPS
May 9, 2013 13:02:05 GMT
Post by abby on May 9, 2013 13:02:05 GMT
It is also the sort of chat I had in mind for Whitefriars so we could sort out words for rule amendments and submit them to the AGM for voting - so it is not another year before any action happens.
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