Oldies but goodies

[abby]

This is a new thread and the purpose is to gauge the interest, comments and support for the possibility of encouraging the helms of older, less competitive boats to come out and join the fun of the Somerville Circuit. One way of achieving this would be to have a separate category for 'old' boats (please give a year - or two separate levels?)

This is to do with hulls, not rigs. Can we consider recognising boats such as Bertie who come out and take part but who are unlikely (this is the Boat not the Helm) to be at the front of the fleet?

This thread is for an idea of what the membership thinks. Please keep comments to the thread, and in your usual friendly language and attitude.

Thanks Abby - and thanks to Laura for prompting this discussion.

[Meat Pie ...]

Not surprisingly I agree with Laura and am in favour of "Classic Moths" and perhaps even "Vintage Moths" being recognised as I have suggested before.Our friends in the CVRDA categorise Boats with this division rather than using the general term "oldies".
Rupert,s opinion and guidance may be worth reading...Are you out there Rupert ?


Several issues to agree of course but all in a very good cause to get these older ships out competing and racing against each other as well as joining in with the main Fleet.

A Sail No split into the 2 categories suggested is probably the easiest way providing the Boat concerned has not been lightened or Hull shape modified as several have been.
Perhaps the split can be relevant to the hull weight change for Classic Moths ,and then perhaps on the age of the boat in the case of Vintage Moths.Sail Nos could be advised i both categories...

If there is enough interest in Classic or Vintage Moth Racing these events should be seperate events for whatever category is decided. It would be un-wise to suggest a Handicap for older boats to compete alongside newer boats in the same race in my opinion.
However if there were sufficient interest I am sure we could all start together[as I am sure they would all like ]and results be split out later.

Roger Witts
FRAMPTON MOTHS


On the same subject of older Moths but on a different tack so to speak....
Personally I have supported a couple of CVRDA Events in the West and plan to do more when I am free.My"Classic"Moth-790 meets the Classic min age of 25 years old of the CVRDA [the Helm easily exceeds this !] and have managed to compete well at tricky venues.The upcoming Event at the wide open spaces of Roadford Reservoir may change all that !
790 like so many older Moths is competitive in our Opens and CVRDA Events in the right conditions.Owners of older Moths should give the CVRDA Events a go...great bunch of really friendly and welcoming folk

[polyfiller]

I think this is an excellent idea and I can relate my moth experience to the flying 15 fleet I sail in just now .... where there are 3 categories. I think that 3 categories may also be needed to fairly divide the fleet. Using same terminology;

1) Bronze - boats built before the new hull shapes (skinner starting from 782 and claridge starting at 751) without modified hull shape or reduced weight. But does include the likes of meritlocks finished off around that time but not reduced in weight.

2) Silver - boats without new hull shape but reduced hull weight - so 45 kg or thereabouts meritlocks and a few others.

3) Gold - boats only of new hull shapes (skinner, claridge, JEP / Clark, BMBA, XMoth etc.)

Roger is absolutely right to call out modified older boats to ensure they don't get to pick up all the pots in an older boat division.

As for inter - racing between boats - this does work at club level - we do it at Broxbourne in the F15's and I have often crossed the line, only to look back and see a classic boat not far behind .. knowing full well I've been beaten on handicap. However - important to note that this type of handicap racing is not used at FF Championship events - each group of boats race within their own groups.

BTW - have to ask - what is CVRDA ? Kind of rhymes a little with YMCA ... we can startup a song now ..... :-).

And don't get me started on big water / fleets and the handicap ..... I think that the moth handicap is rediculous when used on open water / big fleet & winds....... I used to regularly attend the chapions pusuit race at Draycotte and got slaughtered when there was anymore than 10 knots of wind - and I mean slaughtered - like being overtaken very quickly and beaten by as much as 40 minute son the water. Unless more results like this are submitted to RYA (where moths do badly) then the handicap will be a problem on bigger water. Even in perfect moth like conditions, the olde PY handicap was still not generous enough on open water.... because the wind usually fills in in some way (sea breeze) and where it doesn't for big handicap events, they abandon IME. Once had "perfect" moth wind for Draycotte for the first 60 minutes of the 100 minutes (actually more for the moth as we started near the front) and while wind was very light, worked my way through to 2nd place.... traouble is it filled in to about 5 - 7 mph and this was enough to get some very fast boats moving like N12's, Ents and a bunch of others .... it never got above 7 mph but it still dropped me down the order to around 19th by the end. very very tough handicap IMHO.

[paultp]

Would there actually be enough boats to warrant doing this? Given that my boat 784 is 28 years old there haven't been 100 boats built since so where would you draw the line? Maybe you could do it by decades?

If you look at the 2009 Nationals results there were only 3 boats below an 800 number sailing, I can't find a set of 2010 Nationals results but the figures are probably about the same.

Is this idea prompted by a suggestion that people don't do the traveller series because they don't think they are competitive? I don't think that is the case. Some people travel and others prefer not to. When I bimbled round the circuit in the late 90's (being uncompetitive but still enjoying it) there were only a few boats travelling then.

Personally, I don't do the Somerville because the events are too far away but the main reason is because I prefer to race at my club (in a streaker!) on Sundays.

[Same same]

Two replies here.....
Toby,s reply first ...CVRDA - Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association.
Spoke to Toby recently .... nice Bloke with a good deep spirit for the Class which will hopefully see him back and sailing with us soon.Gather he was a bit quick a while back and he is younger than most of us !!!


Paul,s reply next .....Hi Paul absolutely love your posts ..always thoughtful.
The whole point about Laura and Abby chatting about the "oldies" ...sorry Classic and Vintage British Moths was really two fold...
1 To prise out some of the older B.M s.
2 To encourage these Guys[and Gals]and tempt them into racing with the main Fleet but possibly have a race or series within for similar age boats.Really good idea methinks.

You are of course correct that as a very old Class we do not have a great number of boats say over 25 years old racing in the Somerville Trophy or Nationals regularly. As suggested they feel they can not be competitive against what is perceived as the quicker newer boats.
This is not neccessarily true...example a]a certain C .Hall won the Nationals in 504 [35 years old Col;in ?]in recent years and ...example b]Rob Wilder won the Nationals in 817[ when she was about 20 years old] and he would love to have her back !

The whole initiative is to get these older boats out
and give them the opportunity to race with the current Fleet and to race with boats of a similar age etc..

Personally I believe there is great fun to have with an older Moth both within the BMBA Programme amd by supporting CVRDA Events in your area.
We have 3 Moths currently in our Family...one was launched in 2010,one is 26 years old and one is now over 40 years old and still one of the quickest Moths upwind .

I am sure you will agree any initiative to encourage and see older British Moths join us at Opens or the Nationals is well worth supporting.
Lets not forget the Class has its 80th Anniversary next year...Motholympiks 2012.

RW

[Pie-eyed]

Hopefully more about being inclusive and welcoming the old boats as no matter the age there is racing, socializing and a bit of fun to be had, its not all about the winning....
Lets face it, it's far more satisfying seeing the oldies out enjoying themselves and giving the new boats a run for their money. Also it is fascinating seeing all the different setups and how individual you can be with a Moth.
We all have unique little boats, it's great to keep the history alive and even better sailing.

[joneurope]

I agree with Laura,
I think with the older boats its a real lottery of wheather they are "Quick" or not. For example, Roger won the MWYC open in a skinner, 790 (Im im correct), and although a nearly 26 year old baot was in no respect slow. It is a tough one, if you look at other classes suck as the merlins or nat 12's; a boat thats 5 years old can be seen as totally non-competitive (for some).

However, being the helm of 786, an older girl showing a few wrinkles and bags under the eyes, it is great fun to push the newer boats on occasions and, to be honest, beat boats worth ten fold what my boat's worth!

And yes-I think any ideas to encourage older boats out is great! the more the merrier! Anyone who comes to a moth open will always be made more than welcome, as I was at MWYC-thanks again folks!

[polyfiller]

So now I know what CVRDA stands for .... I'll have to stop practising my YMCA dance moves ... damn !

[paultp]

May 13, 2011 14:54:57 GMT polyfiller said:

And don't get me started on big water / fleets and the handicap ..... I think that the moth handicap is rediculous when used on open water / big fleet & winds....... I used to regularly attend the chapions pusuit race at Draycotte and got slaughtered when there was anymore than 10 knots of wind - and I mean slaughtered - like being overtaken very quickly and beaten by as much as 40 minute son the water. Unless more results like this are submitted to RYA (where moths do badly) then the handicap will be a problem on bigger water. Even in perfect moth like conditions, the olde PY handicap was still not generous enough on open water.... because the wind usually fills in in some way (sea breeze) and where it doesn't for big handicap events, they abandon IME. Once had "perfect" moth wind for Draycotte for the first 60 minutes of the 100 minutes (actually more for the moth as we started near the front) and while wind was very light, worked my way through to 2nd place.... traouble is it filled in to about 5 - 7 mph and this was enough to get some very fast boats moving like N12's, Ents and a bunch of others .... it never got above 7 mph but it still dropped me down the order to around 19th by the end. very very tough handicap IMHO.

Agree 100% with this.

I have been fairly vocal on the PY this season and will continue to be. I started a thread a while back entitled "To PY or not to PY" (well, it seemed witty at the time) for discussion of same. I realised I had no idea how the PY was set and so set out to find out.

What I found out appalled me, there isn't much of a system and at the moment it consists of the RYA and the clubs metaphorically looking at each other expecting the other to come up with the goods and neither of them are.

The RYA wants the clubs to work out from race results what the PYs should be and then tell the RYA who then look at the returns and adjust the PY based on the clubs overall recommendations. Most clubs patently don't understand this and just want a list of PYs to apply and they mistakenly think the RYA puts some effort into producing said list. Many clubs that do submit returns don't realise the effect of their submissions either and as a class the BM suffers specifically from this problem.

The PY system is a shambles to be honest.

[polyfiller]

And it's been like that for some time.... however the exact guidance for clubs to make use of the PY could help at a club level .... I'll try and find the wording somewhere ... but basically you should be able to say "this PY doesn't work here and the RYA even recommends that local variances be applied where they are required"........ bottom line is that PY should enable fair inter class competition and if a group of moths with reasonable standard of helming can't get wtihin x minutes of a faster class .... then the club should be equally as concerned as the moth sailors in terms of the competitiion being level.

Will post if I find the exact PY guidance.

[rupert]

Hi all, just found this thread.

Have to agre it is an excellent idea to introduce age related trophies into the fleet. Back in the mid 90's, when I owned 633, it was possible to come top 10 in an un modded old boat. With the advances in hull shapes and rigs over the last 15 years, it looks now to be very hard indeed.

I'd agree that 3 catagories would work well for the fleet. One would include the real vintage boats, going back say to pre 1965 or 70. The next would be harder, but the suggestion on hull numbers above would make sense. It is a small enough class to be able to take a look at boats and decide which fleet they would be suited to. I would also suggest that a carbon mast puts you in the modern fleet, whatever the boat underneath.

The CVRDA, or Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association (or Knackered Old Boat Society) was set up 12 years ago to cater for boats which, in many classes, are no longer competitive. I sailed 533 at some events with lots of success, and Roger has been along with the just qualifying (cut off date 1985!) 790 with equal success.

One reason for this is that we use modified 1965 handicaps. A BM rigged as of then with the narrow topped sail and extra weight would sail off 110. I decided when I was sailing them that a long top batten boat should have a big penalty, and sailed off 107, and was still able to win on Bristol Docks and at Frensham Pond. Since then, we haven't had any well sailed Moths to judge things off till Roger came along. We probebly should have knocked 2 points off Roger's handicap at Bristol Avon for having a Mylar main sail (this is pretty standard across the classes at cvrda meetings) but he would have still won hansomely off 105.

The cvrda is also split into 3, with the very old Vintage boats (all rivets, ribs and cotton) the Classic boats (designed and built before 1965) and the Old boats, designed before 1965 and built before 1985. We all sail together, handicaps are adjusted according to age and state of tune, and prizes are given for each fleet.

Quite agree the modern handicap is rubbish - I'm afraid this is one reason I sail a Lightning these days. While the Lightning has a difficult handicap, the BM has an impossible one for somewhere even the size of Whitefriars in any breeze.

It would be great to see some more of the older BM's coming along to cvrda events, especially to the Nationals, which I'm running at Whitefriars over the August Bank Holiday. I hope we can all have a chat about it at the BM open there in a few weeks.

[polyfiller]

OK, did a little research (not difficult) and it looks like the RYA have written up in detail how to use the PY system - looks much more comprehensive than the stuff I saw in the past. Best link for scheme usage is;

www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/2007%20Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20Scheme/2007%201%20Objectives%20and%20Using%20the%20Scheme.pdf

Key points to take from this (if you can stand to read threw the definitions part) is that clubs can assign their own yardstick and indeed the RYA recommends doing so and provides a mechanism for setting them via the running of "specimen" races. Bottom lines is that clubs which just use the stock PY numbers are not doing us a favour. Possible approaches left for moths could be (suggestions only);

1) a well worded letter from the association (BMBA) to all moth clubs requesting that a club handicap be assigned on the basis od specimen races or indeed analyzing past results at each club (more data = fairer CY per club) * CY = Club yardstick.

2) BMBA runs some specimen races at clubs where we have good numbers / diverse fleets / good relatrionship with club and then establish a recommendation to clubs about CY's they should use. Specimen races would need to be run at a variety of veneu sizes / types.

3) Ask clubs to send reports to BMBA and have some bright spark analyze to work out per club CY numbers to recommedn back to each club.

4) Allow further class development to speed the boat up (hydrofoils anyone) .... which is an option I don't really like and am only suggesting for the sake of balance.

Am sure others can come up with ideas also ..... although I think the important principle to have clubs accept is;

1) The assigned PY numbers are NOT the only option and

2) Clubs should be interested in customizing numbers to maintain fairness.

Perhaps all of this dovetails nicely into the subject of introducing different handicaps for different ages / categories of moth .... if a good job is done with the data then maybe we save the RYA some effort. I guess I could ask someone in the 15 fleet how they came up with the gold silve bronze numbers for F15's.

[polyfiller]

Dear lord what happenned to my spelling / typing today pxoy kwybroad and brain failure. Apologies :-(

[pegasus]

Having read the thread it seems it is going in two directions. There is already a thread about handicaps and maybe some of the discussions can be transferred over.

As for handicapping older boats this is a different topic, one of which I have a vested interest in as I try to go to as many opens as possible in a 35 year old boat.

There are several reasons why owners have older boats: 1) they cannot afford a new boat and unlikely to travel; 2) The owners may have had a Moth for many years and don’t want to buy new.

The overall cost of going to opens is now governed by the cost of travel. Entry fees are still reasonable, however the fuel cost for travel is now considerable.

Is there a need for a separate trophy at individual opens for the best placed “vintage” boat? I don’t think so. A “Vintage Boat Somerville” trophy for the best placed / oldest boat on the Somerville series maybe an alternative, maybe even reducing the number of races needed to qualify, after all there is one for the Nationals for the best placed pre No 750.

Is it worth looking at the overall turnout for the Somerville. So far this year 22 boats have entered of which 2 are 750 or older. Last year 60+ turned up of which 10 were “Vintage” boats. Most of the attendees were to their home club only or the Nationals. This leaves effectively 15 out of roughly 80 eligible boats taking part regularly in the series. Maybe we need to look at attracting all ages of boats to come to opens and the Nationals.

Is it worth trying to contact all known owners and clubs to update the overall fleet list? After all, how many are sat in dinghy parks not going anywhere except rotting away and not doing a lot. There have been 2 recently advertised on Ebay do the new owners know about the BMBA and how they would benefit?

Sorry I have strayed from the original topic, but the matter of encouraging others to come to open meetings, particularly those with older boats lies with members of clubs who regularly attend. Looking at the fleet list on the website there are boats lying at such clubs as Desborough and Chippenham, for example ( I know they arent the only clubs), that are never seen on open meetings away from their own clubs.

There is a lot to be learnt by attending opens, they are fun, and being a small class more personal than some of the more popular mass-produced boats.

Simon

[abby]

OK. I will 'ignore' here the arguments about PY, and gather that the general gist is that yes, we could have separate prizes for older boats in the Somerville.

Next question, shall we try and factor it in this year so we have a basis on which to do it formally for next season? Actually, as she is doing the results, this question may really be for Laura to answer!

Abby