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Post by paultp on Nov 29, 2010 9:47:28 GMT
I mentioned this in the "metamorphosis of 784" thread but it possibly needs wider discussion.
I've sailed my moth through the frostbite series at Ripon (foreshortened due to work on the clubhouse) and won every race when the wind is light. As soon as the wind picks up the solos and streakers get ahead of me.
I've sailed a streaker all season as 784 has needed repairs and comparing the two the streaker is definitely much faster in a breeze. yet the PY's are not far apart. (Moth 1168 to Streaker 1162 = 16 seconds in an hour).
A season ago I would have put this down to my sailing but I have sailed a lot this year and it has improved. On Sunday I was 20 boat lengths ahead and the wind increased, the streaker almost caught me yet I don't think I made any real mistakes and sailed the moth pretty well.
I plan to sail the moth as my wednesday night boat next season as they are usually light wind events. However, I am worried that my decision will contribute to reducing the PY in time (if Ripon submit results) as the only time I sail the moth is in light winds and I do really well.
Has there been any progress in the RYA allocating PY's for different conditions an/or waters?
Does anyone have any advice for me?
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Post by Meat Pie ... on Nov 29, 2010 11:03:38 GMT
Good or Bad PY Returns should always be returned from Clubs its the one of the main sources of factual information that the RYA has to adjust Handicaps. The isssue as always is that in our case the RYA does not see many returns from Open water clubs but does receive them from River Clubs[as they did last year which saw our Handicap reduced again!].I in fact discussed this with the RYA at the Dinghy Show earlier this year,Graham Pope was with me.We had a list of all the Clubs who made returns ...detail is probably buried on this Forum somewhere !Some returns came from Clubs with only 1 Moth,s results contributing to the overall average and subsequent reduction. I did suggest at the time that as a Class we should challenge the new Hcap but not sure if this was done. Further suggest judging by your earlier posts that your fellow competitors may be smarting as you have become more competitive.Of course this is not new and Handicap racing is so unfair at times but we must always remember is that the P.Y,s are meant to average out all conditions ....wind strengths and places sailed. I am not aware of the RYA considering different PY Nos for different wind strengths or conditions.As ever it is down to the Club where we sail to adjust as they see fit but usually this is such a "hot potato" that most decide to stick with the published numbers. For what it is worth for all the Classes I have sailed it is perhaps the British Moth that has one of the most contested Handicap Nos...but only when the wind is light !!! When its a honking Force 4 and up most completely write off the Moth as a threat in Handicap races knowing that we can be overpowered and are not so competitive especially on open water[ponds/lakes/reservoirs etc]. ....Thats life I guess. Roger Witts FRAMPTON MOTHS
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Post by paultp on Nov 29, 2010 15:40:42 GMT
I'm not sure how the PY is arrived at but last season's reduction seemed draconion for a class that is 80 years old.
I wonder if the problem is one of sample size? Someone who took more notice during lessons on statistics may be able to correct me but if there are only around 50 or so moths competing around the country then that is not a sufficiently large sample to warrant such a large change. The only classes where the PY changed more seemed to be development classes or new classes.
For classes like the laser or mirror where there are thousands being sailed each weekend, some very well and some very badly, the sample size and spread of performance is massive. The laser PY actually went up last season (+3 for the radial!)
Also, the moth tends to be sailed by competent helms whist beginners tend to either buy whatever boat there is a decent fleet of at their local club (availability) or whatever boat becomes available that they have heard of (familiarity).
At Ripon, I've seen beginners buy lasers because they are easily available and well known. They are actually very hard work to sail (even harder to sail well) as most (wet) beginners quickly find out. I bought my moth because there was a large fleet of them at Broxbourne, even though I had hardly sailed a single hander before. With hindsight it wasn't the most forgiving first boat.
The moth also tends to be sailed where the conditions suit it, so without taking that into account the PY will continue to reduce until the moth's performance in light winds is reduced by handicap. Unfortunately that will kill the class in all but a few clubs.
The RYA PY list page does state "Clubs should consider adjusting the Number where it does not reflect the performance of a particular boat (excluding Crew Skill Factor)" Perhaps this is the way forward?
Whilst I doubt that a club will ever adjust a PY up (i.e. increase the number) perhaps those clubs with large fleets due to the advantageous conditions could adjust the PY locally down. This would reduce the advantage of the moth but it may preserve a competitive PY for the class overall.
Difficult to get a moth sailor to suggest this at his local club. However, I know if I suggested a 2 PY system for my moth at Ripon so that I had less advantage in lighter winds but a more advantageous PY in fuller winds, I'm sure the other members would consider it having seen me disappear into the distance every time there is hardly a ripple on the water!
There is great interest in my boat up here as very few people have ever seen one before, but it has been quickly labelled "a light wind boat". The streaker fleet and the solo fleet continue to expand because they do well in the club handicaps.
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Post by paultp on Nov 29, 2010 16:11:12 GMT
I've just had a brief read about the PY number system on the RYA site and it is clearly a mess of system! From what I could see the PN is meant to be used as the basis for determining handicaps but is in fact used as the definititive handicap by all clubs. As Roger says, always a hot potato for a club to alter a PY set by the RYA. I don't know what a Yardstick return looks like but was interested to read this: 3.9 Recommended Numbers are those numbers entered on the Yardstick Returns by returning clubs. They are the Numbers judged by the club to be the most appropriate for its returned classes racing to Base Rig on its waters. Any allowances (plus or minus) must have been eliminated before returning a Recommended Number. Do we have any detail of the numbers being used on the three clubs returns that the RYA are using as a basis for the moth PY? Perhaps those clubs with conditions that continuously give moths an advantage are (probably correctly) recommending the PY reduce? If other clubs are not submitting returns then these are the only returns taken into account. Which brings me back to poor sample size! The RYA seems to rigidly apply the results of returns to a system they say should be flexible. Surely if they only have returns from 3 clubs common sense dictates that this is not a reflection of the performance of the class as a whole? On the subject of the possible different PY's for different types of water; I posted this on this forum at the start of the 2009 season (no idea what has happened to it). bmba.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=technical&action=display&thread=293
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Post by Meat Pie ... on Nov 29, 2010 17:11:55 GMT
Paul Lots to comment on but in brief.... Yes it does come down to a sample size...believe that the slowest and fastest in a fleet are not included in any calculations and that returns from Clubs with only 1 boats results are likewise not included. The Moth will be almost 80 years old soon but the Class has allowed iteslf to change.. - weight loss/hull weight reduced. - change in sail plan and use of a full length top batten - loose footed mainsail - Hull shape variations within the rules - use of Carbon Spars All these factors have or can have a change in performance. It is wrong to say that all or most Moths tend to be sailed by competent Helms.The Class has always attracted Novices and beginners ...it is in fact one of our main selling features. The comment about a Moth being a good light wind boat really brings us full circle.This very fact has been known to us all who sail the boat and those who do not. Finally i must say I am not a fan of different PY,s for different water types. We have got what we have.
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Post by paultp on Jan 12, 2011 11:45:31 GMT
There's an interesting discussion on the Yachts and Yachting forum at the mo regarding the PY of the streaker v lasers It started a couple of years ago when the FRP streakers came on the scene but was reinvigorated last week by a laser sailer complaining about the streaker PY. yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5561&PN=6&title=streaker-py-numberJust shows that water and conditions affect the performance of a boat. You'll be pleased to note that I haven't joined in and pointed out that I have beaten all comers in my moth in a light wind at Ripon including catching up the fast fleet which started 5 minutes ahead and overtaking a phantom, a laser and a super novas! ;D Might be worth it though ........
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Post by Overoptimistix on Jan 12, 2011 13:10:13 GMT
Paul, in reply to a much earlier comment, clubs do adjust the portsmouth number up as well as down. The point is to produce a fair race between different classes and if a boat doesn't perform well (for reasons other than the helm) then the handicap goes up.
When I used to sail at BASC the Mirror handicap was raised considerably and the Moth one lowered. I still found it easier to do well in a Moth than a Mirror.
In essence it's the same as the personal handicap series that are sometimes run.
The RYA PN is a national guide to be adjusted locally to get good racing for the local conditions.
dan
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Post by paultp on Jan 12, 2011 14:16:38 GMT
Hi Dan,
I'm sure some clubs do adjust the yardstick but in many it is simply applied regardless. I think if anyone suggested a local system at Ripon it would be shouted down as I am sure it is at other clubs, mainly because the RYA is independent of the club.
The discussion I mentioned shows that some boats go better than others at certain venues but it is also the conditions that matter too.
For those that haven't read it; the UK No3 laser sailer was beaten on handicap by a 70 year old in a streaker. Another laser sailor says this is justification for hammering the streaker's PY. The 70 year old is actually an extremely good sailor and the water and course setting suited his boat. The conditions also suited him as the relatively light wind negated the far superior fitness of the 19 yr old laser sailor.
Every light wind race I sail in my moth raises discussion of it's PY, nobody mentions it when the wind is blowing. The consequence is I only really sail it now in series where the wind is going to be light (and Ripon SC is a small lake) as I know I have an advantage.
My point through this discussion has been that the moth PY is largely being set by fleets sailing in conditions and on waters that suit the moth (3 clubs evidently). This is tending to restrict the moth to those waters - an ever diminishing circle. This is probably true of a number of classes.
If PY's were set by the RYA with water and conditions in mind - classes could flourish on any type of water and in any conditions without any local change to an independently set handicap.
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Post by paultp on Jan 13, 2011 9:49:51 GMT
There's another (very recent) thread on Y&Y regarding PY's at the mo. Although it descends into an argument about the RS100 it does include comments from a chap that sits on the committee that sets PYs (or ahem ... PNs ). yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7461&PN=1&title=a-final-solution-to-the-py-questionThink I may use the off season to find out if Ripon do submit PY and if so how, might try to get involved to get a better feel for the system. Does anyone communicate with the RYA from the BMBA? Do we know which clubs are submitting returns and how?
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Post by Meat Pie ... on Jan 13, 2011 13:03:03 GMT
Paul To my knowledge nobody communicates with the RYA re PY Nos. PY returns are the responsibility[if they wish to make returns]of the Clubs. As I think I have mentioned before the latest adjustment to our PY No was discussed at the 2010 Dinghy Show...Graham Pope and myself asked about what Clubs had made returns. Can,t remember exactly who made returns but there were 7 and were predominantly from River Clubs.My own Club Frampton made a return but the results were not included. The RYA I believe do their best to average out results and evaluate what the PY No should be but they can only do this based on the reteurns received. For the Class and overall fairness returns from Clubs at all Venues..River,Canal,Reservoir and Lake Clubs need to be submitted where Moth Fleets sail in Handicap Races. If the majority of returns are from a specific types of sailing water the PY No may be biased as a result. Roger Witts FRAMPTON MOTHS
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Post by ianedwards on Jan 13, 2011 13:35:40 GMT
To throw my hat into the ring. The PY of the moth has been subject to much discussion over all the years I have been a member of the association. Many years ago Goffo worked very hard to protect the then yardstick trying to encourage those clubs where the Moth had a significant advantage not to submit returns whilst encouraging clubs where the Moth was disadvantaged to submit returns. This worked for a long time but as time has gone by the river based and small water club returns have ended up with our performance effecting the yardstick. The Comet who for many years enjoyed the same handicap they have had an easing of two points as has the Lightning. This is clearly a reflection of the location of their fleets and performance. At Evesham in light winds the Moth could always outperform both the Comet & Lightning it was when the heavy stuff arrived that it became interesting! We all appreciate the performance of our querky little boat suits resricted waters and therefore is it not about having more representation at larger clubs, that becomes the difficulty
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Post by paultp on Jan 13, 2011 18:10:14 GMT
The more I read about PYs, the more I think it is a fair system.
People moaning about it (as I was!) are normally moaning about the fact that someone is beating them in a different boat in certain conditions. Or in the case of the laser sailor by most boats in all conditions!
At Ripon there is a mirror sailed single handed by a light and expert crew, that in a moderate breeze is extremely difficult to beat on handicap (over 10 minutes in an hour). More so because you are not racing with it on the water and so tactics do not come into it much after the start. It probably evens out though because I have beaten it on handicap in light winds in my moth and heavier winds in my streaker.
So some boats go better on some waters and/or in some conditions than others. It probably works out even over a series.
I also now think that to try and implement an across the board, independent system that accounts for type of water and wind speed would be far too complicated for most clubs to use.
I'd still like the 5 points back that we lost last season though!
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Post by casablanca on Jan 13, 2011 20:19:40 GMT
As I see it, some py's will be unfair in certain conditions but if small clubs with small fleets (maybe only 2 or 3 boats) start tweeking py's it can become more of a personal handicap.
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Post by Meat Pie ... on Jan 14, 2011 10:08:27 GMT
Good debate as there always is on PY Nos.... Fact is that unless a Handicap is obviously wrong[such as the Phantoms who have been adjusted several times and are probably due to again]its the lesser Classes that seem to be adjusted.For example I did a simple analysis of H,cap race winners at Frampton at the end of the 2009 season which showed that the clear majority of race wins were by Solos and Lasers. This was not considered seriously and as most Clubs do ,Frampton decided to stick with the published PY Nos and not to adjust any[as they are entitled to]. The whole purpose of the PY system is to be a guide but the RYA does allow Clubs to adjust PY Nos locally.....this is rarely done. Fact remains that those of us that sail a British Moth really enjoy the boat and how it performs.Sure we would like to figure better resultwise but unlesss and until returns to the RYA justify a change, the PY No we will remain as we are and possibly only competitive at more restricted/smaller Clubs and in lighter winds.This has always been the case I believe. Despite the Class,s many changes...hull lines,sail plan changes,lighter hull weight and now Carbon Rigs the basic design is almost 80 years old and to have a PY No so close to a Solo just cannot be right !Solos too have had their Lines tweaked and the Solo PY has not been changed as a result. I have sailed Solos for many years ...I have owned 5 and in anything above Force 2-3 a Solo is easily quicker than a B.M. if both are well sailed.As the wind strength increases the B.M. will be left further and further behind.It is something we have to live.In a 50 minute pursuit we start 30 seconds ahead of the Solos...a huge challenge to do well ! Enjoy your Moth and enjoy sailing it whatever and however the Handicap affects you at your Club but please use every opportunity to join us on the Open Meeting Circuit and at the National Championships to sail against and with the Class. Some look for a Handicap "Bandit" boat that can realise an advantage...perhaps this is still the case for B.Ms at some venues.Again to my mind to simply look for a boat with a "good "handicap is perhaps not the way to go. Roger Witts
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Post by ianedwards on Jan 14, 2011 13:43:14 GMT
Roger I wholeheartedly agree with you, it is all about the enjoyment of sailing the Moth as much as anything. For a number of years Evesham adjusted the Moths handicap simply to give other boats and helms the opportunity of winning something but in time we reverted to the published PY simply because the other helms started to improve and possibly become too competative! Yes a well sailed Mirror can be a real challenge and even on a river most craft sailed well to their handicap will result in competative racing. Yes lets enjoy sailing our Moth, occasionally pulling off a surprise result. I am off to a new location for the BM this Sunday, the water looks to be ideal for the Moth so lets hope, forecast looks to be challenging! Ian Edwards
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