new yardsticks

[gmc]

the RYA have published the 2010 yardsticks
www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20General/2010%20Part%207%20PN%20List.pdf
Mark

[joneurope]

OOOOOOOOO Buger, theyve dropped it by 5, the swines. And to add to the cheek, they have only dropped the Albs by 1. WHAT A WORLD

[paultp]

My club changed the handicap limits for the club fast and slow handicaps for this season which put me up against the Streakers which I was looking forward to as it makes the slow handicap much more competitive.

This cuts my advantage in half!

I was in amongst them but can't get near them in a decent wind on the old PY.

One wonders what the reduction is based on, is there any way of finding out?

I have to say, I am considering replacing my boat for next season and as I am not in a moth fleet and miles from the opens I will be considering a streaker I'm afraid.

[rupert]

I was surprised to see it, too. I can only think that because Moths are only raced in any numbers in places that suit Moths, you don't get the handicap returns from people sailing them in unsuitable locations.
Of course I sail a Lightning now, and it went up by 2...happy days!

[Pie-eyed]

Spoke to the RYA yesterday at the show...
Its all worked out over averaging 5 years of returns which in the case of the Moth means predominently river clubs.
The Frampton figures will have little effect for a couple of years

[Meat Pie ...]

To add to TT700,s comments....
As soon as we heard of the PY No change we contacted the RYA to see who had returned the Stats and the basis for the change.We will be receiving the full analysis which will be passed onto the Committee and put on here for general interest/comment.
The change is averaged over the 5 year assessment period and showed better than Handicap performances from the 7 Clubs who had made returns.
From memory returns were from.....
Cam
Desborough
Staines
Ouse
Bristol Avon
West Oxfordshire
Royal Findhorn
As you can see 5 river clubs,one pond and presumably an eastuary at Royal Findhorn...
Frampton have only made one return in 2009 so will not be included but we believe we have under-performed to Handicap.
Lots of comments can be made but with the exception of Desborough and Staines the returns are made from Clubs with small fleets and in some cases only 1 boat.
We believe West Oxfordshire only had one or two Moths and possibly no longer have any.

With an even tougher task ahead in Club and National Handicap it makes even more sense to support our Open Meetings !

[713]

Just had my first race using the new PY, no chance of a decent result. Think I'll have to get a Streaker as well

[Meat Pie ...]

Neil
Glad to hear you are on the water.
Remind us of where you sail, presume you are on a pond somewhere.
The new yardstick is undoubtedly an even greater Challenge I admit ,and is totally due to the majority of Clubs returns coming from River Clubs[ as mentioned in a previous posting on this thread].We need more Pond or more Open water Clubs to put in their returns to effect any change.We have the right to appeal and ask the RYA to take another look on perhaps two counts....
1 To re-evaulate their findings and make an adjustment.
2 To consider a H.Cap for older boats[that have not been re-built with modern lines] say pre 600,700 or 800.
Fact is that the Moth is such a good boat on restricted waters and we are penalised when we sail on more open water venues.Only alternative is to try to sail quicker,pick conditions more advantageous to the Moth or have a second boat for fun when it blows !
The best alternative of all is to try to get to as many Moth opens and the Nationals.
We believe we have some very competitive Moths at Frampton yet we have only achieved good results on "Moth Days"when conditions suited us well...usually in light fluky airs.
This season may be different as we have 3 new boats with a 4th soon to be built ,2 with Claridge/Cook Hulls,and 2 with Morrison lines that may be advantageous on ponds and may help us beat the Handicap.
Early days yet but we will still have a huge challenge ahead of us to beat the Solo,s Laser,s,Phantom and Comet,s.
Roger Witts
Frampton Moths

[paultp]

I started a thread in April last year about a trial system which was intended to address issues such as class development and performance on different waters (got the info from my club).

Does anyone know whether this has progressed?

There does seem to be a marked difference in performance on open water for a moth when compared to a river or restricted water.

As the yardstick at the moment is based on 5 years data then the PY will surely only get worse (for us), resulting in the class being limited to those waters where it does well. Not good in the long term for the class.

Thread here: bmba.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=117&page=1#1122

Project info here: www.sailracer.co.uk/contentview.asp?id=137&uid=69757

[Meat Pie ...]

Paul a suggestion for the BMBA Committee and subsequent proposal to the RYA methinks....

[paultp]

Mar 30, 2010 11:57:31 GMT Meat Pie ... said:

Paul a suggestion for the BMBA Committee and subsequent proposal to the RYA methinks....

I think the project is something individual clubs contribute to by uploading race data from sailwave software (or similar) as the season goes on.

My club (Ripon SC) uses Sailwave for all the race results through the season and I'm pretty sure they are sending the data off for this project.

I'm just not sure whether this data from clubs is being used towards PYs yet.

[pegasus]

If only 7 clubs made a return then the information is flawed anyway such a small percentage of clubs . The last time I looked at Y&Y there were alot more! However, it looks as if (For this seaon in particular) that we are going to have to live with this PY. Therefore those of us who sail in handicap fleets have to ensure that returns are made through sailwave or what other method is required to the RYA to fight our case.

In my particular position we have just had a load of Comets join us and to date I have not been able to keep up with them (Before I damaged Bertie!). I have suggested that this year all handicap racing should be subject to personal handicaps. The only progress on this has been the thought of making our monthly pursuit race into a personal handicap basis.

I have sailed at clubs in the past who have operated such a system to great effect and created "fair" handicaps for their particular water. THis can only be policed if one person is soley responsible for the calculation of corrected times otherwise race officers who are not familiar with the system may calculate the results incorrectly.

[713]

Hi Roger

I sail on a small lake, 43 acres approx, with a few trees down one side and lots of funny wind shifts. I used to sail a Solo and was always in top 3 in h/cap fleet, now in the Moth I'm in bottom 3, usually out of about 20 boats including Streakers, Lightnings, Wayfarers, Phantoms etc

My Moth is in good condition with most of the latest sail/mast controls but has a very old mast and sail. I got the Moth to stop it going on a bonfire and have fully rebuilt it with the intension of using it for our Weds night series as a light wind boat.

Fortunately my Moth is my second boat, with my RS300 being the main one although I'm using the Moth all the time at present whilst I refurb the 300. I'm finding it a bit of a handful in the strong winds were having at present

Neil
(Moth) E'ton 713

[Meat Pie ...]

Paul,Simon and Neil
Will attempt to comment/answer to all of you as there is a common thread to your posts.
I think its obvious not only to us but perhaps all British Moth sailors that our Handicap is pants on Open water ! However some would probably say[especially non Moth sailors]that perhaps our Handicap on restricted waters and smaller rivers is generous.
Given ,as has been said previously,that in fact very few clubs that sail Moths put in returns to the RYA and those that do are mainly river clubs resulting in our previous and current Handicap.Godfrey Clark campaigned for some time I believe on this very point and tried to encourage Clubs to put in returns.In fact it has taken over 4 -5 years of campaigning for my own Club Frampton to finally submit full race analysis/results for the 2009 season.
I suggest that if our own Clubs do not put in PY Returns to the RYA we should encourage them to do so,and perhaps we need to especially persue more returns from Open water Clubs.A club does not have to have a fleet of Moths,the results from one Moth regularly sailing in most conditions will help to get good average performance data against other classes.
In Paul,s case...Ripon S.C,s returns, if indeed they did submit any,were not included in the 2009/2010 calculation.[see the listing of Clubs whose results were included in 08/03 posting above].Believe the RYA take the average results over 5 years from the same Club which may explain why they were not used and why Framptons 2009 return did not figure in the calcs.
Yes the system can be deemed as flawed but the RYA can only work with the data they receive.
As stated previously when we discussed this with the RYA at the Dinghy Show it was advised that we can appeal to have the PY No looked at.
It should also be noted that the PY Handicap is a guide for Clubs to use.It can be changed or adjusted to suit the venue/conditions.Most Clubs[unless they run a personal Handicap system]are reluctant to change anything.At Frampton we looked at the 2009 Results and analysed that some 96% of the races were won by either a Solo or a Laser....a suggestion to locally adjust the Handicaps of these 2 Classes fell on very deaf ears !
Other than an approach from the BMBA Committee to the RYA to investigate our Handicap I see very little we can do about it until more "Moth Clubs" submit returns.
I believe this is very important to potential newcomers or converts to the Class as they could view the Handicap as being unfair especially if they sail on a lake or more open water and see little chance of getting a good result.
Would suggest that improved Handicaps for older boats should also be persued[see earlier post onthis with some suggestions]
In conclusion sailboat racing is not all about winning.
In the case of the British Moth most people I know who race them regularly sail them because they really like the boat,its quirkiness,the way it handles,its characteristics etc and usually sailing a Moth makes you smile ! We all would like to do well in Handicap Races at our Club but for a while[until the balance of returns is addressed ....something that we all have a part to play]we will have to put up with our current Handicap.

Roger Witts
FRAMPTON MOTHS

[paultp]

Excellent points Roger, particularly regarding more clubs submitting returns. All clubs use the PYs so I suppose they should really submit returns.

I'm fairly sure Ripon submit returns but they will only have had a moth on them for last year. I'll check though.

You're right about sailing the moth too. I don't think I'd really swap mine for a streaker. I'll look on this change as more incentive to sail my boat better. I should probably still be amongst them and hopefully I will contribute another season of results for the PY. That should improve it for us!