|
Post by memoryman on Aug 27, 2013 21:48:13 GMT
I had originally thought of having the two complete front halves cut from a single sheet of ply but I couldn't find a way of doing it so that both sides looked similar. It was a situation where one side would look fine but the other would have a knot in it. I'm still left with a 6ft leftover, having cut out the rear deck, which has knots which at least match. They should look OK on the two middle decks. The idea about the white stripe down the centre was twofold. The 4ft sheet only just reaches the inner stringer at the rear end. I thought that if I could cut the sheet in two and add a white wood line of, say 1/2 inch, this would give me an extra 1/4 on each side. I thought it might make that join at the rear quarters just that little stronger. I came across the idea of the side fillets whilst reading about a N14 re-deck. The gentleman argued that the expanse of the deck took the eye away from the small fillets on either side and that no-one ever spotted them. I hope he's right! The centre beam is almost 2 inches wide so I'm hoping this will help in making good the centre join. The 4mm ply is actually quite strong and does resist bending. I'll ask Robbins about ways of bending it without splitting especially for the middle decks. I'm going into Robbins tomorrow morning - hopefully they'll have the right wood for the gunwales.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Aug 28, 2013 12:52:00 GMT
Unfortunately, Robbins didn't feel able to offer advice with regards to the 'white wood' stripes. As they explained, they are a timber supplier, not a boat builder. Driving home I was thinking of Godfrey's comments. Rather than try to make the ply wider to reach the gunwales, it would be simpler to add a strip of wood to the inside of the gunwales to support the edge of the deck sheet. I also looked gunwales up on Google having mispelt it earlier. It appears that one can also have inwales and outwales as per my Moth. You live and learn! Anyway, driving home, I remembered a small firm called 'Interesting Timbers' which is quite close to us in the Mendips. I'd always wanted to be inquisitive so called in. They major in oak frame buildings but do virtually anything associated with timber. They were quite happy to supply me with some 6x20mm sycamore and reasonably priced. They 'suggested' I fit and varnish the decks first and then fit the syacamore. The dark dust from sanding the mahogany apparently 'colours' the sycamore. It would also allow me to screw strips of wood across the gap between the front decks to ensure they fit nicely and hold them in place until dry. I can remove the screws and fit the sycamore stripe. As someone famous says, 'simples'. They had done the decks on a GP14 and apparently it lasted for years and always looked good. So, that's the plan!!
|
|
|
Post by godfrey on Aug 29, 2013 9:54:54 GMT
Never heard such nonsense about colouring the sycamore.....How are you supposed to face off the joint if the deck is already varnished? Have a look at Scruff;- I dont think there is any discolouration there. The tricky part may be bending the final strip(s) around the bow. Try the superstores who sell a 4x20mm hardwood strip,-ideal for moth bow gunwales.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Aug 29, 2013 16:29:48 GMT
I remember in the dim and distant past laminating the bow section - lots of steam and careful bending around formers. I shall try the same with the bow sections of the gunwale. I've ordered enough sycamore in order to cut thin sections on the band saw and I'm hoping with steam and care I should be able to get a decent result. I'm unsure about the colouring of the sycamore with the mahogany dust. It may be that the Moth is so small that any colouring is unnoticable, however, I came across the following paragraph from Tips for Sanding & Finishing Exotic Woods. '... finishers should be aware of the products they're working with. Some exotics may 'bleed' their colour onto neighbouring woods when finished. The dust of these species is spread onto lighter woods, such as maple or beech, giving them a pink cast. Some recommend vacuuming extremely well then using a fine applicator or bristle brush to apply a light finish coat over just the border or inlay, then coating the entire piece'. It does look as though it could be a problem. I'm afraid supermarkets are one of the major problems of our time. They are responsible for our lack of local petrol stations because of their price cutting antics and they are using every possible method of extracting money from their customers. If it's OK with everyone else, I shall support my local timber merchant and chandler and, of course, petrol station!
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 4, 2013 16:16:01 GMT
Time moves on and I've joined the CVRDA. They appear to be active in my neck of the woods with homes in and around Frome. I've been over to Shearwater on a number of occasions and although I haven't seen a Moth, they do have a good selection of boats. Evening racing seems to be well supported. The boat had the kicker missing and I'm looking around for ideas. Is 4mm rope OK? I've seen a diagram with a triple block on the boom, a twin block on the bottom of the mast with single blocks on either side. Rope is then led up through the single block to the triple block, down and around the double block and back up a couple of times, then back down to the single block and out to a deck cleat. It does mean it can be adjusted from both sides. The idea is to have a similar layout for the downhaul and out haul. Is this OTT? Any ideas welcome. The rear deck went on well with West epoxy mixed with filler. It's a case of coat the underside of the deck, stringers and gunwales with epoxy, then, before it dries, add a filler to the epoxy to make a paste and coat the stringers and gunwales again. Then apply clamps where-ever possible but not too tight - don't squeeze all the thick epoxy out of the joint. It all seemed to work OK. I made a mistake when I epoxy coated the decks. Afterwards, when I read the instructions, it recommends putting on three coats, one after the other with no time for the epoxy to go off. I put on one coat and left it to the next day. When the epoxy goes off it leaves a greasy coating on the surface which one is supposed to wash off. Needless to say, all I did was a quick sand down and on with the next coat. I've never seen so many 'fish eyes' before. After a lot of rubbing down I got to a point where the surface and finish look OK. There are still two coats of varnish to go on but I shall wait until everything else is done to put the final, final coats on. Next jobs are ties for the buoyancy bags, toestraps - located forward of the centreboard case and under the rear thwart and then held up and sideways by bungee to the side decks. The hog seems to be the strongest place to put them. Then it's the middle and front decks, a quick coat of varnish and with luck it may be ready for the CVRDA meeting at Baltic Wharf in Bristol in November I think. A couple of pictures to show progress.
|
|
|
Post by Overoptimistix on Sept 6, 2013 12:10:57 GMT
I did the foredeck in two sections with a join down the middle. I cut a slot in each for the shroud anchor. When I fitted them, I put some pins in temporarily to mark the centre line then glued, clamped and pinned the deck on. When the glue had set I removed the pins and fitted the other side.
I have also just put on a new bow gunwall. I wanted to do a proper job so I bought some hardwood, trimmed it to the right 1/2" radius D-section with a router and steamed it in a piece of drainpipe with a wallpaper stripper.
SNAP!
Then I bought some 38mm by 8mm white oak strip from Homebase soaked it for 24 hours (in the multi-purpose drainpipe and steamed it and it went round with no problems. It had a quarter round section in one edge.
I fitted it using brass screws first and then after it had dried for 24 hours took it off and used foaming polyurethane adhesive that fills the gaps as well as the screws. It looks lovely now after trimming to fit and some coats of varnish.
Back on the water tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 6, 2013 13:18:57 GMT
I love the idea of the drainpipe! Sorry to ask stupid questions but did you soak it for 24hrs and then steam it as it went around or was it steamed for 24hrs? My current problem is the curve on the side decks. I knew I was going to have problems but resources limit the number of attempts. I can get three side decks from the wood I have left but only two of those have matching stripes. The third is considerably darker than the other two. I didn't notice this until I had started on one of the pair! I tried to bend a test piece and the sepele veneer cracked quite quickly. I then thought the next step would be to try 'kerfing'. It can be seen from the first photo that the side deck is made up of a flat section from the gunwales to the inboard stringer and from there, the last 15cm, it curves down to the lower stringer. I cut channels in the side deck about 7.5mm apart for the section of the deck that has the curve. They are about 2mm deep by 2mm wide. I then tried boiling water over this section and attempted to bend it. Needless to say, it didn't move! After I had left it for an hour or so it had become more pliable. I think I may let it sit in a bath of hot water for a couple of hours. I don't think the stringers and formers are strong enough to take the stress of bending the ply so I'll try and make some form of mould/structure to bend it, allow it to dry and hope that it will retain enough curvature so I can fit it the boat without stressing the structure. As always, ideas greatly appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by Overoptimistix on Sept 6, 2013 15:26:16 GMT
After my first failed attempt (actually my second as I tried the first one dry) I googled bending wood. The main result was that you want to bend wood that is wet not dry as it is sold. I soaked it for 24 hours in 3m section of drain pipe with end plugs fitted - at the bottom to stop the water falling out and at the top to stop the wood floating up.
When I wanted to fit the wood I dangled the wood in the drain pipe using a bit of twine with a nail across the top of the pipe. Put a rag in the end over the nail and held the pipe and wood vertical on one of the hose down pipes with a bungy. Insert steamer hose in bottom of pipe and the rule of thumb is one hour per inch of thickness.
The advantage of steaming after soaking is it helps perevent the wood being dripping wet and means that it will dry off quicker as it is hot.
Different woods will bend differently. Oak is quite good. Possibly the one I had originally does not bend well.
Once the wood has dried it is supposed to be fixed in position. When I removed it and glued, it did spring back a bit but bent back easily.
Conveniently stripwood is sold in 2.4 m (8') lengths and drain pipe in 3m ones. I'm not sure that they make pipes big enough for the side decks though.
Try soaking overnight in the bath or maybe a water butt. With marine ply, I exppect that the soaking will only get into the outer sheets and not into the core wood.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 6, 2013 19:28:14 GMT
That sounds great - I reckon I could set that up to bend my gunwales. I left the side deck in a bath of hot water (well it was originally hot!) for about 4 hours. The slots I had cut in the underside went into the central veneer so the majority of the bend should have all the veneers wet. I botched up a bender (see photo) and by pushing the edge up over the length of the deck I have managed to get a deflection of 9cm. I only need 8cm for the deck so I'm hoping that if it springs back it should still give me a pretty reasonable approximation to the bend in the deck. I assume one needs to let the wood dry out completely. I don't think my epoxy would take kindly to a wet deck! Buoyancy bags and toe-straps now fitted. I had to come up with an arrangement to hold the front of the bow bags as it is impossible to get near them with the decks on. I've used a piece of rubber hose through which I've threaded a small rope then led it back to the mid-thwart over the c/b case. The hose holds the rope in a loop which means I can then push the bag into it and pull the rope tight and put it on a handy hook. Please bear in mind that the last time I sailed a moth was some 40 years ago and the memory is not what it used to be. I'm hoping that the majority of what I'm doing will work. Time will tell. Thanks for your kind suggestions - it's good to know someone else has been there and done it!
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 10, 2013 12:40:20 GMT
My sycamore order was completed and collected yesterday. The wood is quite beautiful. It is very white with well defined grain. It is also very supple. I mentioned that I was going to use the bandsaw to take small slivers and then laminate around the bow. The chap said it should bend quite easily if soaked overnight and that I shouldn't need to cut it. He could well be right. The picture gives an idea of how the sycamore should look against the sapele. It also gives me a push to get things completed. I have soaked the sidedeck three times now but the amount of bend doesn't seem to be cumulative as, each time, the deck seems to spring back to its original curve. I'm coming to the conclusion that I shall go with the bend I have and just ensure I have enough clamps available. I may be worrying too much as the side deck stringers seem to be pretty substantial - they should be strong enough to hold the decking to the right curvature.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 12, 2013 16:08:48 GMT
Well, it was no good soaking the side deck each evening, it wasn't getting any more curvature, so I plucked up courage and all the clamps I could find and attacked it with West Epoxy. I first fixed the inner edge against the stringer, made sure it was well clamped as the edge had a habit of remaining straight and not sitting in the stringer nicely. By this time I reckoned it knew who was boss!. I then worked my way back along each edge and the centre two formers. Finally, I clamped the outer edge of the deck to the gunwale. I keep watching it expecting it to suddenly spring open but of course it will only do that when I'm not watching! Had to go to Robbins this morning to get some more brass tacks. Got the last lot home, put them somewhere safe and now I can't find them. They'll turn up when I don't need them. It's not funny at £8 for 100 grams. They were, however, nice enough to cut me a piece of sapele 18 inches long for me to cut out the two pieces to go on the back of the transom to hold the traveller above the tiller. It went in the till as a 'sample' for £1.50 - nice people!!
|
|
|
Post by casablanca on Sept 12, 2013 19:42:22 GMT
I seem to remember my Dad steamed the ply when he re-decked my brothers Moth many years ago, I think it involved cloths & kettles but can't remember much else. He had to do it twice in the years we had the boat as we managed to kick in the replaced decks. The second time it was done he changed the deck layout too.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 13, 2013 14:32:23 GMT
As a 'dad' of two twenty somethings, the saying 'once bitten, twice shy' comes to mind! It didn't take me long to realise who was the boss in our house. If the children wanted something done a certain way, what was the point in arguing. Simply amend the plan slightly. I'm sure it led to a less stressful life. Trouble is - I'm still doing it! Found this on the boat cover this morning. Does it mean I will soon have a Chrysalis?
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 18, 2013 15:28:38 GMT
Well, winter approaches and the days are getting shorter. The good news is that I have completed 60% of the re-deck. The side deck didn't spring out when I took the clamps off and, presumably because of the curve, appears to be quite strong! Having read the instructions, I'm going to try and put three coats of epoxy on, one after another without letting the previous one dry out. I read that this means that each layer will chemically bond to the previous and prevent the layers separating in the future. We shall see. I did have trouble getting what I would like to think is a flat surface. It seems that each layer accentuates the imperfections/ripples in the previous layer. With the rear deck, I let each layer dry and rubbed down in between each coat. With two coats of varnish, the result was OK. Perhaps it's just a matter of three times the rubbing down all in one go! No prizes for guessing what I'll be doing tomorrow. Still, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
|
|
|
Post by memoryman on Sept 20, 2013 8:35:14 GMT
Just when you see the light at the end of the tunnel, someone comes along and switches it off! I put three coats of epoxy on my new decks and they looked reasonable. That was 3.30pm on Wednesday. Yesterday morning I took the boat out of the workshop - it was a nice morning - and looked at fitting the traveller to the transom. The decks had gone off and it was possible to touch the epoxy without leaving a mark. Needing some screws, I threw a cover over the boat and popped into Robbins. I got home an hour later to find that the wind had blown the cover off the boat and a we had had a shower of rain. This was about midday so the epoxy had had 21 hours to go off. The epoxy had lost all its gloss and was covered in a milky white substance. If it was cellulose I would say that it had bloomed. It is not a surface covering but goes deep into the epoxy. Needless to see, I'm not too happy. I must speak to West's as I'm not sure what I've done wrong. Clearly the rain had something to do with it but it doesn't seem right that the epoxy should react after some 20 odd hours to go off! Anyway, more later.
|
|