polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on Apr 25, 2011 22:45:55 GMT
Not wanting to stir up any trouble ... but having read the article on Mast Bend by Colin and also the thread about Carbon.... I wanted to ask the question - why carbon ?
Has the move to Carbon rigs been driven by a performance desire or an effort to improve sailability and therefore enhance access and appeal to potential new moth sailors ?
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Post by robwilder on Apr 28, 2011 13:37:12 GMT
I had left the class when the rule changed happened.. Not quite sure what the drive was to change to Carbon but it appears not to give a huge advantage over alloy at this time.. If I was to have another boat I would stick to an alloy mast and have a carbon boom and decent foils which can so often be overlooked.. Plus I would go for another go fast Rowsell Sail !
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Post by mark wiltshire on May 5, 2011 9:29:14 GMT
Hi pollyfiller Its nice that you are showing an interest in our class. I was the driving force behind both the carbon mast and the new john claridge well documented, measured, weighed, disscussed, controlled, and considered all before being passed and accepted by committee. Carbon mast There were several reason why i trialed then put to a vote by members and the committee the introduction of the rule which allows masts to be made from any material (not just carbon.) I wanted to make the moth easier to handle in heavier condition and give an all round more sailable package. I wanted to put a modern twist on our classic boat giving it apeal to the modern sailor. I wanted to create publicity for the class and create new interest. I wanted to make steps towards our boat becoming more interesting for juniors. Last but not least carbon looks hot. This was meant to being a lead in to developing a junior shorter mast to make the moth a boat all the family could use by a simple swopping of the rig as in lasers etc. I hope this answers your question. Asbo, claridge moth. I gave john a very clear brief on what i wanted Asbo To be. I asked for a boat that used every last mm possible in water line length and the maximum possible use of bow cure all within the rules. It turned out that this was harder to achieve than i 1st thought. I wanted to be sure that another boat could not be built in the future pushing past the design i was having built. To do this joh. Insisted that i claify the limits. This was done by committee and as has been pointed out to you already the bow curve and all measurments are very controlled. Only after the design was agreed was the work started. Asbo was measured re measured weighed and inspected in every way possible and passed! Every test. I am very proud of the fact that Asbo is in the conditions she was designed for a very fast boat. Her speed is helped by rig sail foils and set up all of which takes time and at a cost. All that said Painted lady built by goffo was fitted with the same rig and the was very little between them. Where the claridge was quicker in a heavy blow the goffo was quicker in ligher air. Every builder has built a boat that is quick in certain areas but none as yet have mastered being the fastest in all winds and water conditions. I wonder how my next project of building a boat that is very fast in light winds will be recieved? In conclusion Asbo is within all rules set by the committee. For someone who claims to be only one of two that are in a position to comment o. Moth design i have to say in my humble opinion and with all due respect you seem to have a failure to understand a very simple concept. Rules are rules and as long as you stay within them alls good. New boy
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on May 5, 2011 16:25:07 GMT
My quesiton was with regard to the carbon mast and it looks like the answer is to generate more apeal, although I hope the cost differential will continue to close to ensure that it is not seen as a barrier.
WRG to the claridge - I have no issue with it and my comment re: measuremens in my other post was a conern that the measurement is difficult to control given the current wording. Try working up an enforcable interpretation of "fair curve" and "no sudden changes".... and if anyone needs placing up against a wall regarding such "weakness" then you might want consider me ... I'm sure during my tenure we discussed closing up the wording somehow ... which is probably why I have a "hazy"recollection of a fair curve template being discussed and possibly used.
I had concerns regarding the measurement during my final year. Some boats fell outside of my own personal interpretation of fair curve and no sudden change. It is this type of feeling which can damage the class if it becomes prevelant.
Provided the current governance authorities (committee & measurers) are confident that someone won't build & measure something which comlpetely changes the game ... or more dangerously, appears to do such, then fine. The cat & mouse game of measurements and those willing & able to exploit any weakness in rules has been going on in many classes for many years. Trouble with the moth is that the active user base is so small it should always be seen as "fragile"; there were numbers of people who left the class first time around due to the apparent need to spend £ 000's just to compete. What makes me most comfortable about current situation is that the relative costs for even a real fast boat seem to have avoided the worst ravages of inflation and are now better value than ever compared with other classes.
In terms of being qualified to comment on the different effects of hull shape and the other benefits of rig, sail etc... I still believe that there aren't that many out there other than goffo & myself who can comment with such authority.
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Post by graham7 on May 6, 2011 10:53:28 GMT
Harking back to fair curve,I trawled various authorities for guidance including current ISAF and old IYRU rules and found quite vague definitions,we were proposing ising a fine lath or batten to bend round the bow profile but the Isaf rule allows you apply pressure along the lenght to iron out hollows within limits,how vague is that. When you study the plans carefully a major factor which governs the bow profile is the mid ship rise of floor ie flat rocker gives sharp bow curve,max rocker smooths the profile.AS we are working with a very short boat I am advised a smooth shape will work best. I recognise your qualification to comment but must point out there has been 15 years of developement since your involvement however the one design principle shines through and we arrive back at pretty much where we started with many more Wein lookalikes now.Dog leg and skinny boards have been tried but most have returned to largish pivoting boards which give allround performance. Back to masts,this year I have been trialling a carbon mast made up from lengths of standard tubing sleeved together from different diameters to get the taper required,easy to build,adaptable and a materials cost a similar price to a tin rig,just need half a day to stick it together and an hour or so to modify to suit.For me this is the real benefit of carbon,allowing you to build and modify a mast to suit your requirements ,just like planing down a wooden mast ,but lighter ,easier to work with and durable.I was very sceptical about carbon but now see the oppotunities it opens up and benefits on the water from and easier rig to handle both on the water and during logistics of rigging travelling etc.All Good.
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on May 6, 2011 11:59:20 GMT
Graham - yes .... agreed ... the debate on fair curve is a nightmare which is why there was some discussion about a template ... but my memory fails me as to what happenned. To be honest, while things are certainly better now ... there does seem to be renewed interest in development and therefore it is a very opportune moment to re-visit and see if a measurement could be achieved to clamp down on any potential abuse. While the abuse MAY not occur, what is probably more important is to shut down any debate or suspicion of such. I do echo your comments about rocker and remember this being a big part of the debate in the past.
Good to know that carbon offers so much tuning flexibility ... just hope the prices remain low or even fall a little. What is really key is to ensure that everyone feels they can be competitive without the need for silly expenditure.
In terms of experience I have the best possible in terms of comparing the longer with the skinner specifically - I had two championship experiences where I raced against both types and got placed under pressure by both, where both boats were setup and tuned by me, with pretty much same rig, sail profile .... a very sobering experience I might add. Basically getting chased by one of your own boats where you know the tune is spot on can tell you a lot about where the speed differences occur. I got chased in a skinner by Wein one year and by Betcha with me in Wein another....... over 6 races and in both instances the boats chased closely all week .... and I knew the setup. I could tell exactly where & when the helm behind made a difference & where it must be the hull shape. I've always had a very very well tuned sense of boat speed (no matter which class) and can make a change to tune and feel the difference ... call it some sort of sixth sense but it comes in very handy when judging pure hull speed.
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Post by graham7 on May 6, 2011 12:41:07 GMT
I must work on my sixth sense,I have enough trouble using one at a time!!
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Post by Pie-eyed on May 6, 2011 13:25:24 GMT
So 'Polyfiller' the question surely is are we going to see you back in a Moth? Are you suitably reassured that you still have one of the quickest hulls made and obviously the knowledge....
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on May 6, 2011 14:03:28 GMT
So who say's I still have a moth ? And even if I did have access to one, it would either need; 1) a very special ali mast - of which there is only one in existence and you can guess where it sits or 2) A carbon rig with similar bend qualities to 1). 3) A new sale. I would consider returning only if I could be FULLY competitive (and you hopefully know what that means) and if I was sure there was actually adequate competition to make it a challenge.... oh and if the spirit / comittee / atmosphere was different to what it was - and from what I see here - I think it is
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Post by paultp on May 7, 2011 23:09:59 GMT
I've decided you're not Toby Cooper after all, I now think you're Jose Mourinho.
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on May 7, 2011 23:27:31 GMT
Well I do have to find something else to do now I've gotten myself a touchline ban ;D
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on May 9, 2011 15:31:08 GMT
Given content of post and the quite correct comment above, could I suggest an amdin delete this post ?
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Post by oldgreyfox on May 9, 2011 18:25:54 GMT
The class secretary is quite correct in her comments.
The comments that "polyfiller" has made on the forum are all valid points for discussion and deserve proper consideration with respect for the knowledge that he has of the class.
Whether he makes a comeback or not, (I am sure he would still be up front as skill does not disappear with age, ask TD), NOBODY is likely to eclipse his record in the British Moth and this in itself commands respect.
OGF
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polyfiller
Mothist
14 x winner of the annoying git on the water award.
Posts: 126
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Post by polyfiller on May 9, 2011 19:50:49 GMT
Aw schucks ... now I am getting embarassed. Still suggest this thread is deleted given it may cause someone to get the wrong impression of the class.
Would be good if the topics could be progressed elsewhere / in some other way... I think they are quite important.
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Post by abby on May 9, 2011 20:15:48 GMT
Ok, Firstly OGF I have risen above secretary to the more exalted madam chairperson - and as such have used my delete button, including my own post about this being a public forum and leaving the competition on the water and the debate on shore after the racing.
The proposer of the rule change to allow masts made of any material has provided insight into why. The change was lengthly (some might say endlessly) debated over several years and then accepted. If one considers the results of the St Edmundsbury Open and the hulls/rigs used, and then the following week at WOSC, one can draw their own conclusions about the competitiveness of older boats, ali masts - I still think its the helm that makes the difference - although if someone would like to give me a brand new boat with a carbon mast and a super go fast sail, I would welcome the opportunity to prove myself wrong :>)!
Debate is healthy for the Class but as a committee we have worked hard to heal the divisions that have arisen in the past. Membership numbers are up this year - we would welcome another Polyfiller, if you haven't yet rejioned - so I take that as support for the committee's approach - let's keep it that way and keep the Class moving forward - competitive, friendly, rule-abiding, welcoming.
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