R&J,s new "SLIM" Sail.

[Meat Pie ...]

Laura,s new sail used on "Tabby"[Sail No 700]at the Nationals was wholly her idea and a sail she has wanted for sometime.
Trying to get hold of a good condition Classic Sail or Firefly Sail seemed to be quite difficult.Brian Skinner kindly loaned Laura what was in effect a Classic Sail which was evaluated.
All the above did not have full length top battens.
A trip to R&J at Clevedon to discuss the requirements with Richard Hannaford of what was to be a try it and see Sail resulted in the blue edged "SLIM" Sail.
Importantly Laura wanted an easier to use Sail in a blow that would still perform well in say Force 2-3 winds and would not over power her when the breeze picked-up.This meant reducing the Roach length and losing some of the area in the top third-half of the Sail.Significantly the full length top batten needed to be retained as did the well proven shape of R&J,s excellent value Sails.Although not fully trialed on this sail yet top batten flexibility and stiffness is so significant on a Moth Sail and on the "SLIM" Sail maybe more so.
The results were quite clearly evident at Northampton.
Laura is fast upwind anyhow but seemed to be quicker despite what has been referred to as a small Sail.Not over-powered and making the boat more comfortable to sail without affecting the tune of the boat.
There are other smaller changes that are incorporated such as the high tack position and reduced foot area that further make this Sail very user friendly.
I tried the Sail on the Friday in Races 5&6 on my Carbon Rig.
The more flexible top section of the Selden Carbon Mast accomodated the Sail extermely well and it both set beautifully and was very efficient giving me a 1st and a 2nd place.
Interestingly and from looking at the Brian Skinner loaned sail[incidentally made by Jeckells]Laura had 2 reefing points put in.
She can reef using one when sailing and used it several times at Northampton.An eyelet on the leach has acontrol line routed back thro the boom[similar to the outhaul control line]back to the mast and then to a deck mounted cleat.By easing the kicker the leach reef can be put in very quickly.The other needs the Halyard to be released to lower the sail about 25cms this combined with the leach reef giving an overall parallel reef.
Whats more all this works really well.
The "SLIM" Sail is not the answer for everyone[possibly us "Big Boys" may still want all the sail area we can get]but for the lighter Helms who struggle in a blow such a sail is well worth considering.

[Overoptimistix]

That reefing arangement sounds like what I was thinking of setting up for my son when I finally get my boat back on the water.

I hadn't thought of putting the leach line in permanently and raising the boom though. Wouldn't that leave the area at the top of the mast?

I was considering getting some eyes to put into an old classic sail that I have but at R&J's prices maybe a new sail ...

[Meat Pie ...]

Yes using the leach reef will not affect the top of the sail but reduces the lower sail area and has the effect of flattening the lower section if the geometry of the control line is correct.
To reduce the top area of the sail a little both reefing points are used but that does mean letting the halyard go a bit.Possible but not easy when you are on the water.
If you modify an existing Classic sail suggest some substantial strenghtening may be needed around the reefing eyes.
The reefing eyes on Laura,s sail were not intended to put in a"full reef"just to give another small reduction in sail area and in two stages...leach reef first and then the using the forward reef option.The intent was always to get a race sail that would be competitive and not just opt for a smaller sail.The inclusion of the full length top batten as mentioned above is important...of course your Classic sail will not have one.
...a new sail certainly seems the way to go then you end up with a more forgiving race sail.

[paultp]

OK, here goes:

** DUMB QUESTION ALERT!! **

(click away now if stupidity offends)

Could an old standard moth sail be cut down to a classic sail?

I have a very old sail with a boom rope, ie are the measurements for the classic sail suitable to cut this down?

Cheers
Paul

[Pie-eyed]

Not Dumb at all, you can have any sail re-cut, windows added etc, as our current sails are generally made to the maximum dimensions there is plenty of scope...
Don't know what the cost would be... time to ring round a few sail makers.
Let us know your findings

[paultp]

Can someone pm me the measurements please and I'll have an ask.

[Pie-eyed]

I did try to get hold of them but ended up just talking things over with Richard and came up with the 'slim' sail.
I would be interested to compare them if you have any more success than I did tracking them down.

[moth868]

Would it not be cheaper to chop off the bottom panel of an old sail to achieve the same result, less area and a lower center of effort? If the sail had previously measured would "permanent reefing" make it illegal?

[the black pig]

it might be cheaper, but you compromise the sail shape more.

[Pie-eyed]

I have tried various sail shapes over the last few years and the 'Slim' cut is by far the best so far, it handles well and cuts out the violence of big gusts which means you can stay pointing in the right direction and powered up, 'Moths' are rather inefficient at turning big gusts into boat speed so no great loss...
Mind you it is all relative, I'm a girl, I weight 10 stone and like to be in control also hull weight 59kg!
I would recommend keeping the sail at the top of the mast as you certainly will miss it, you loose too much power and pointing ability and it greatly effects the handling.
You can have an old worthless sail cut down to a 'slim' for a very reasonable price and turn it into a real asset.

The great thing with Moths' is that anything under the Max dimensions is acceptable... so get creative. I have a reefing eye to lift the boom which is nice when it gets really wild! Example: Northampton Open 2010 Race 3 ... horrific but survived the hoolie!

[moth868]

I have obviously not asked my question clearly enough. So I've expanded it.
When an old sail is cut down do the batten pockets have to be moved to comply with sail rule (vii) that the batten pockets divide the leach into 4 equal divisions, I ask because the last time I got a quote, to make a mini sail from an old full size sail, it was expensive as the luff, leach, and foot had to be re cut and remade, all the batten pockets had to be moved. So the only saving over a new sail was the cost of the sail cloth. But the 'new' i.e. cut down sail was made out of worn old material, so the saving was minimal. Whereas if only the foot has to be re cut and remade it should be cheaper. However the batten pockets will no longer comply with the rule unless the re cut sail is considered a measured sail which is used permanently reefed.
I know a chopped sail will not be efficient but it only has to be more efficient than, standing on the centerboard or sitting in the bar when the wind is to much for my abilities.

[casablanca]

Ricahrd Hannaford cut down an old sail for me, I think he charged about £90 (considerably cheaper than a new sail) basically he trimmed the leach so the batten pockets were just shortened. I delivered the sail to him so could discuss how it was altered & collected it later the same day. Richard took a great deal of care making sure I had a top batten to suit. I consider that it was money well spent as it enables me to sail on windier days without the expense of a totally new sail.

We are considering having Duncan's spare sail cut down in a similar way.

[paultp]

I thought I'd add my recent experience to this thread as I've tried a few options for a reduced sail:

1. Cut the bottom off an old sail so it only goes 3/4 up the mast and along the boom - this is a cheap option but I found it thoroughly unsatisfactory. The boat was unstable and had little power, I attempted to use this at the 2011 nationals and ended up swimming and being towed back to shore (unpleasant experience!). Money wasted = £40 including postage

2. Firefly sail - got a cheap one off ebay and gave it a go - the boat was more stable than with option one but the leech tended to flog a bit and the sail was a bit floppy overall. Cost = £30 plus postage

3. I had an old (but in reasonable condition) sail cut down to a "Slim" sail by R&J - I used this at Staunton Harold this weekend where it was blowy, particularly in the first race. Boat was very stable, good power upwind but a bit underpowered downwind. However it felt like I was sailing a British Moth. The best thing was that I was able to get out and enjoy sailing in a good breeze. I found I could sort out where and how I should be sitting/hiking and practice my boat handling in a breeze that would normally have me fighting the boat. I managed every jibe mark and stayed in my boat in every race, which a good few didn't. Cost £95 plus postage.

Can't recommend the R&J slim sail enough for anyone who struggles in a good blow as it allows you sort out what you should be doing in a British Moth without repeatedly being thrown in the water.

[casablanca]

Paul,

I totally agree with you, I had the same done to an old (bit in not bad condition) sail. Richard Hannaford at R&J was very helpful & tidied up the sail nicely & made it just small enough. We also had a nice day out in Clevedon while he did the work, it took about 3 hours I think & cost £95. I don't very often use this sail but it's useful to have when needed.

[bertfatal]

After my problems with sail measurement, it has occured to me that creating a "slim" sail by trimming a section from the bottom of an existing sail will result in a sail that does not measure due to unequal batten pocket spacing.

RK