gmc
Mothist
Posts: 77
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Post by gmc on Oct 25, 2009 14:07:40 GMT
For a current Class to survive and flourish new boats are essential.... there is a real buzz about the new boats which is fantastic. Personally I shall be sticking with 'Tabitha'. Choice is a wonderful thing! The BMs have always had choice , it is all a matter of balance, the enjoyment Roger has had out of his new boats, and the satifaction you have have out of 700, proves the point. The class needs new boats, but it is the net gain in boats on the water that matters Mark Ps Who said Has been ? M
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Post by New Boy on Oct 25, 2009 17:14:29 GMT
So to go back to my original point how are we going to market our Moths? As I said before image is king when it comes to selling boats. As I do not understand the mail you posted Mark about old boats being lost when new ones are launched I have to ask what do you suggest? Maybe wait til all the old boats have fallen apart before we build new ones. I only know of one boat that has been scrapped since I joined the class and as it was rotten to the core and well past saving it would have sat in a boat yard like so many boats do until forgotten. At Frampton we work hard to get older boats going well and buy, do up and sell on boats at no profit to keep them sailing. We also work hard to develop the class with new masts and sails and even boat builders how much more balanced can it be? Back to promoting the Moth. Next March will see another Dinghy show and it is one of many opportunity's to promote our class. This is going to sound harsh but I will say it as I see it. I think that the Image we portray at the dinghy show is poor. The stand looks more like a meeting place and bag storage facility than a boat stand, ( I am quilty of using it as a dumping ground while off shopping too) We sit around in camping chairs and all wear different outfits. The boats we display are not always the best ( But kind thanks to those who lend their boats and sails.) We use old looking sails and I have even seen people eating their dinner off the boats. We meet and great each other which is great but the stand is often clogged with so many Mothists that newcomers get overlooked. We tell the people that do stop to chat what a great boat it is for sailing on rivers but not about how fantastic they are in a blow on a piece of open water. Jeremy Bill and I had a blast today at Framton in force 4 to 5 winds. Yes we can beat other boats in light winds but we are racing against each other 1st aren't we? They really are fun in a blow lets let people know that too. If I am wrong about any of the above feel free to speak your mind as I always do. Mark I said something about proper racing boat. That kind of came out wrong as do many things I say. The BM has and always will be a racing boat. What I meant was are we going to sell it as that and not just as a boat that is good on rivers. Repeating myself but how are we going to market our boat as I feel if we do not give a clear signal to what it is how will newcomers know? New Boy
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gmc
Mothist
Posts: 77
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Post by gmc on Oct 25, 2009 19:04:10 GMT
As I do not understand the mail you posted Mark about old boats being lost when new ones are launched I have to ask what do you suggest? The point thast I was trying to make, in my own clumsy manner, is that, it is boats on the water that count. The first thing most people look at any class is the number of boats that are out racing and to an extent, the local support ( there is no point in buying any boat if there is no one to play with within a reasonable distance. Of course, public perception is a vital ingredient, as is fleet racing, but until you guys are up and running next year, there is still only Desborough and Medley that offer Class racing, at other clubs, like Chippenham, the water is so suited to the Moth, that it is many years since a trophy was won by any other class Mark
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Post by New Boy on Oct 26, 2009 8:51:49 GMT
I have a different opinion about the Moths and rivers, it is not so much anymore that the BM is a fantastic boat for places like Chippenham but that no other boats are suitable, Do you see the difference. The BM will always have a home on rivers as we all know, with its tall mast and large sail we can make most other boats look silly in these conditions. My point is that with the changes that have been made to the BM over the years and with recent mast changes and sail technology she has become very well suited to larger pieces of water. The Frampton fleet has grown very quickly due to the hard work of Roger but also because people are seeing how well they perform and what fun we have. For anything to sell it has to be marketed and we are now more than ever in a position to do this with a modern looking boat and boat builders ready to go. We had amazing publicity once again from Roger working hard to get us into a national magazine last year. I feel while more and more people are aware of our boat, now is the time to push forward and by this I mean sell more new boats as this is the only way forward for any fleet. You can only save so many old boats from a watery grave but the search does continue for old boats to restore. I am not saying we have to use my ideas of what the BM is to sell it but surly as a class we need to form a strategy to market our boats. Question for everyone: In one sentence, Why do you sail a British Moth? Maybe this will help find a marketing direction! New Boy
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Post by BMBA Admin on Oct 26, 2009 17:01:54 GMT
In one sentence, Why do you sail a British Moth? The vague feeling of pure, unadulterated terror as she lifts onto the plane and tears down the lake on a screaming reach towards the green bouy. The vague uncertainty of what's going to happen when we get there. Sorry. That was more than one sentence. Let's try again..... For the character of the boat, in all conditions, and the close racing and tight-knit, colourful community.
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Post by BMBA Admin on Oct 26, 2009 17:30:05 GMT
On a more serious note, I don't think that the future of our class is with "the yoof"
With some clear exceptions, they've all been seduced by the RYA. We can't compete with Oppys and Toppers and Laser Radials and on that level or with the Squad Training that the RYA provide. They've got that corner neatly sown up. And I disagree Mr C, Toppers are cool, especially if you're 13 years old! But that's fine, we shouldn't be trying to compete.
We should stick to what we do best. Tight-knit, close and competative racing with boats that won't necessarily break the bank. Nurture our own local clubs and fleets, try and keep a healthy and appealing Open circuit going. And new boats are fantastic, for all sorts of reasons; not least because the front of the fleet keeps the class alive and provides a steady stream of boats for the hungering second hand market.
If bringing five new boats onto the water means you have to burn six old ones, the old ones were obviously already firewood anyway. There seems to always be more of a demand for older, cheaper boats than there is a supply. For my own part, I sold ONONO before I even had a chance to advertise her.
As for changing to fast, I think we just have to be sensible. The carbon mast thing doesn't seem to have done us any harm. I'm still sailing with my trusty old Superspars, but I don't have too much trouble catching New Boy in his carbon rigged ASBO. But you don't need to spend an awful lot of money to stay competative. One of our Comet sailors that I've been neck and neck with right the way through the year borrowed 731 from New Boy at our last Open and the only trouble he had with keeping up with me or Mark was the sudden change from stern sheeting to centre main. That old boat was just sold on for £450 including a combi trailer.
So I think we just have to reconsolidate and perhaps better define the strengths that we already have. We have an enduring, endearing, if a little quirky design of boat that has a wealth of history and yet has modernised over the years, whilst still maintaining a firm loyalty to its original character. Our target market is not the Oppy / Topper / Laser Squad fraternity but a more mature group of individuals, any of whom is most likely to be aged from 18 to 80. The sort of people we attract are the type that are coming back to sailing, or have just come in to it and are looking for something a little more challenging to sail than the Mirror they've recently learnt in. Or it's the type that have already done it all and now want to come back to something a little closer to their roots. Or... Well, the list is endless.
Point is, we have a wide diversity of characters, experience and background in our Moth community, and that in itself has to be one of the strengths we capitalise on in moving forward.
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Post by Pie-eyed on Oct 26, 2009 18:02:57 GMT
Excellent comments / ramblings from Bill and much as it hurts me to say it Newboy
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Post by oldgreyfox on Oct 29, 2009 2:11:42 GMT
I have read with interest the ramblings with regards new boats and I would ask the following questions. How many new wooden/composite boats have been built and sold in the past three years? How many new GRP boats have been built and sold in the past three years?
As far as I know Brian Skinner is not likely to build any more boats as he has recently had a replacement knee joint fitted. This means that his boats at a very competitive price will no longer be available, leaving all wood or the BMBA composite as the only available option. My next question is what is the cost of a new wooden boat with carbon spars? This will be perceived by any enthusiastic newcomer as the only way to go.
On the subject of the Dinghy Show it has to be remembered that funds are very limited and new display material is extremely expensive so what we have been able to achieve in the past has been determined by a need to keep costs to a minimum. In my experience of the last two years there has been great difficulty in getting anybody to loan a boat for the show good or bad. Had it not been for Abby and Gary and me the stand space would probably have been an empty shell as again there was no rush from any others to help so before people make criticism of the way things have been done they should perhaps offer to help!!!
OGF ( Now sailing a Solo )
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Post by Pie-eyed on Oct 29, 2009 8:48:06 GMT
I have read with interest the ramblings with regards new boats and I would ask the following questions. How many new wooden/composite boats have been built and sold in the past three years? How many new GRP boats have been built and sold in the past three years? My next question is what is the cost of a new wooden boat with carbon spars? Don't really understand where you are going with the questions...
5 new wood/composite boats in the last 3 years GRP you would have to ask Mr Skinner.
BMBA's are excellent allround fast hulls....and we have 3 active builders and several others ready to take an order for all wood boats or decking a hull. Obviously with it being a bespoke build prices will vary but you would easily get a top spec Moth for less than a Solo for instance.
Don't understand why people feel the need to talk the class down.....Enjoy your Solo!
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Post by scruff871 on Oct 29, 2009 9:45:00 GMT
Its great to have comments but perhaps sad that some may be considered negative. New Boy and Bills comments are very well thought out and considered, and ,are wholly aimed at promoting the Class. I think we really must celebrate that new boats are being built and sought currently. A "new" builder in John Ckaridge must be especially celebrated as not only building all wood boats John is currently making an all plastic boat that will be available next year.This alone is so important for the Class as Brian Skinner seemingly will no longer be making all GRP boats. In addition there is another exciting venture soon to commence a build and 2 more very well known Boatbuilders prepared to build all wood versions. There are issues however in actually getting a new boat priced[Boatbuilders are elusive at times in this respect]and something that as a Class we should try to address. An earlier post requested the price of an all wood boat with Carbon Spars. Carbon spar prices are posted in the Forum on this web-site. As for Hull prices each builder can advise[i.e.Clark,Pope and Claridge]no doubt each of these builders can supply bare hull and fully finished/fitted out prices too. New boat prices are not cheap but I believe the a new BM is very good value compaed to other Classes. However a new boat is not the only option to Class new-comers or "come-back kids". As always although supply is limited there are S/Hand boats available and boats that will come on the S/Hand Market.These may require some degree of repair,refurbishment or re-equipping but in many cases provided the basic features are sound this can be a very viable lower cost option to consider to get a competitive boat. It is intersting that recently there does seem to be much interest in getting hold of "project "boats or a boat that needs a refurb.Older and perhaps "Classic" boats very much have a place in the Class and has prompted suggestions to the Chairman/Fixtures Sec that we encourage the older boats to compete more and race within an Open for example with both an overall result and a "Classic Result ".This can be done as other Classes do by age[Sail no]of the boat. Apart from positive Press coverage and Race Reports the Dinghy Show is an important platform for the Class.I am sure all will agree that all the Class is grateful for the efforts of many[not just those mentioned in an earlier post]who have gave their time and loaned boats for past Shows.The point however is to try to improve what has been done previously. I am sure as ever we will do the best that we can.
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Post by BMBA Admin on Oct 29, 2009 14:52:08 GMT
My next question is what is the cost of a new wooden boat with carbon spars? This will be perceived by any enthusiastic newcomer as the only way to go. I disagree. Most enthusastic newcomers, of which I'll add we've seen a good number this last year, are most likely to look for a good value second hand boat that meets their particular requirements of price and performance. At the moment, most [but not all] second-hand boats have "old fashioned" ali spars. Doesn't seem to have dampened the enthusiasm of those snapping them up. I wish you the joy of your Solo, Barry. What is the cost of a new one of those these days? By the way, I had great fun at our last Open chasing Elaine in your old Moth
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chee
Mothist
Posts: 18
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Post by chee on Oct 29, 2009 20:39:15 GMT
Remebering back to last year when I was researching what boat to get the British Moth did not even register that there ws such a boat. I can't remember how I actually came across the class and the website, but once I found it and was interested in purchasing one I had already committed to my RS Vision.
Maybe if people are made more aware of the class, especially people new to sailing then this might help??. Not really sure what the answer is, just adding my experience (or lack of) to the debate.
P.S. I am still trying to convince the other half that I need another boat. One that I can sail single handed. So mabe next year when (if ?) I get my bonus I might just be in a position to join in at last.
Chee
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Post by BMBA Admin on Oct 30, 2009 0:18:14 GMT
Hi Chee, good to know you're still out there. Agree we need to make more people, especially those newer to the sport, aware of the class. Question is how, other than more of the same? By the way, the offer of a blast around Frampton's lake in a moth still stands if you ever feel like taking us up on it
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Post by graham7 on Oct 30, 2009 2:39:53 GMT
There are two elements to publicity; keeping current members informed and broadcasting the word to the unconverted.
Newboy's main concern, on this post, is the latter and this is pure marketing. Creating demand not only for the boat but the promise of joining an active fleet with a depth of competition, all levels of ability are welcome, and newcomers then chose a boat to suit pocket and aspiration.
Active fleets create the demand for boats, and with an established association and fleet infrastructure these boats hold their price and sell on easily, so people are willing to invest and even the bonfire fodder are nurtured.
We have to offer new boats with all latest gear, but also a range to suit all budgets; we are marketing the British Moth as a fleet. This is many things to many people, but it is a racing boat and you have to pay for speed to some extent. Vintage boats can be encouraged by concours prizes, however this is not headline advertising but rather just a facet of our appeal.
We are a friendly, welcoming class and enjoy the fun of the boat. We need to address realistically where demand will come from. There are hundreds of small clubs like Frampton, where the majority of boats sailed are dinghies and the British Moth potentially ideal. Each fleet therefore needs to network with their local clubs to arrange interclub meetings, visits etc.
As yet, carbon has not proved essential as we sail on flat water where carbon's full benefits have not made a massive difference. However, we are watching a few develop the material, and it adds to the modern image which is a part of the overall appeal.
I am afraid none of the traditional classes are able to offer new boats off the shelf and so have to be built to order as small builders cannot take the risk. However, a new all-wood Moth with alloy rig will cost around £4000; add another £800 for carbon rig. For a tailor-made, made-to-measure product this is good value.
Perhaps us builders should encourage existing members towards trading up to new boats ensuring a trickle down of second-hand boats.
Modern publicity is internet based and we have a good presence. Our forum is accessible and widely read and, as evidenced by the response to this post, always promptly answered, thanks to Bill and his crew.
What we need now is a good calender for next year, already well underway, backed up by reports, photos, etc. hopefully with plenty of sun and spray.
We have good framework in the Association at the moment, but still need to develop and improve further.
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Post by Overoptimistix on Oct 30, 2009 9:06:57 GMT
I have often answered the question "what is a British Moth?" by saying that it's like a Topper with a better sail. I also said that the hull is a bigger and the mast taller. However I have now actually googled it and none of the measurements are more than 100mm bigger.
I was talking to someone at the sailing club who was enthusing about the new bigger Rooster sail on his Laser and hoping it would be competitive with the Moth. Has anyone considered trying to produce a Moth-like sail to go on a Topper? Obviously to get the real experience you'd need to get the real thing.
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