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Post by paultp on Apr 12, 2012 8:07:04 GMT
I thought I'd start a discussion on the merits of the various sail makers who produce British Moth sails.
I'm thinking of buying a new sail but as they seem to be so expensive compared to other classes (my P&B Streaker dacron was just less than £340) I wondered what people's opinions are on the various sail makers. Also the prices vary quite a bit between the various sail makers.
I appreciate there are times when you get what you pay for but that isn't always true. I'm not tight; I'm just careful.
If you don't want to put something negative about a particular sail maker on a public forum please pm me.
Thanks
Paul
P.S. I might just put together a list of current prices for comparison.
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Post by Fatboysfly on Apr 12, 2012 9:11:33 GMT
Paul
I was in a similar dilemma, done a bit of research.
I had set myself a budget on sails of £500.00, how wrong I was!
Dynamics sail came out at £641.00 very nice piece of kit.
North came out at about £690.00 again well proven by RW
p&B was over the £600.00 mark
Banks P5 power cut to my mast stiffness was £576.00, including delivery, vat etc.
I think if I commissioned a new boat, i would probably gone with Dynamics, they have a very good reputation with the Merlin Rocket class, which the mainsail is very similar to a BM.
Decisions, decisions!!
hope this helps
Jeff H
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Post by Meat Pie ... on Apr 12, 2012 9:47:47 GMT
Paul
Kicking off with an overall comment about Sailmakers.
In recent years I and others have worked with several Sailmakers to work with them on new cuts and updating their sail shapes for the benefit of themselves and of course the Class.
I must say their support and interest has been fantastic !
We are a small Class and we have managed to persuade and encourage most of the major Sailmakers to become involved. I must say ALL have contributed significantly we really thank them for their support.
It would be wrong if I were to suggest what I perceive as the best as I believe that Sailmakers will do their utmost to accomodate individuals needs and produce in effect a "custom sail". Most of the Class leading helms all to some degree have different thoughts and ideas.The adoption of Carbon Masts has been a challenge to both Spar and Sail makers and added another dimension to Sail performance.
Thro Training Days we have tried to share this knowledge and findings with everyone but I must say that there is still a void.In that Helms do not fully understand how a Sail and Rig works or should work. Fundamentally we now have some excellent Sails available...one only has to look back thro pics even 5 years ago to see how Sail shapes have changed and all for the better.
Need a new Sail ?....Go and talk to a Sailmaker they are only too willing to help.A new sail is a significant cost and they are keen to please each and every customer..
Some of the Sailmakers who have helped the Class recently....
Rowsell - Frank Rowsell
P&B ----- Dave Wade/Alan Bax
Banks --- Daryl Morgan/David Banks
Speed --- Jim Hunt/Andy Davis
North ---- Charlie Cumbley
....and finally probably the most prolific Moth Sailmaker over many years R&JSails - Richard Hannaford.
Roger Witts
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Post by the black pig on Apr 12, 2012 9:55:17 GMT
elaine has just gone for a rowsell, which was £580 including vat. she went for it because its a proven sail, which works very well on an aluminium mast. ( if its good enough for rob and the two tim's, it was good enough for us!  we looked at the north, but decided it was not worth the extra money, which is not to say its not a great sail. p.s. jim and andy are no longer at speed sails. they are now making sails in their own loft as HD sails. |
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Post by paultp on Apr 12, 2012 11:06:04 GMT
I think I probably should talk to a sailmaker, thing is I don't know what to ask for! ;D
The mast I have on 784 now is quite different from the old bendy (bent) one, mind you the sails I used on it weren't specifically cut for that mast.
I think I'm one of the people who doesn't understand how a sail works and so don't know what I want or what to ask for. If I tell them what mast I have, is that enough? I suppose my weight etc comes into it too.
The nearest sail maker to me is Sail Register, they still advertise that they make British Moth sails but I don't know when they last made one. Maybe I should take a trip to see them.
I think this may need some discussion at MWYC!
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Post by Meat Pie ... on Apr 12, 2012 11:51:05 GMT
Paul
Going for a cheaper option is not always the best decision unless you have a tight budget of course.
Likewise not understanding why any given sail is more expensive that another can be understood by talking to the Sailmaker involved....are they hand cut,laser cut,are they matched etc..
The sailmaking process,the design and thoght process needs to be understood I suggest ..besides it is interesting.
Lots choose tobuy Sails that the quicker Helms are using...fair enough as this is really what the Sailmaker is after in the end.To provide a Sail or Sail variants to meet each of our needs.
This is a good place to start IF your parameters are the same ...i.e same mast characteristics etc.
Yes we can talk at MWYC there should be some intersting Sails there and plenty to talk about. Perhaps we could have a pre-race session on Saturday and share other Helms opinions.
You will need to provide all the information you have listed...
- Mast type/stiffness
- Helm Weight
- where you sail ?..Do you want a sail for your home club conditions or for say on bigger Ponds...after all we have a rather important event coming up in August and all of us will want to do well then ! Sure we all want an all-round performing sail but fact is folks that is a big ask of the Sailmaker.
..But more importantly what you want from the Sail...good upwind etc ?
...another factor and quite difficult to translate into a requirement is your style of sailing and what would best suit you.This is often not discussed but can be very relevant.
RW
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Post by robwilder on Apr 12, 2012 12:02:00 GMT
I should be using the first Dynamic Sail this saturday as long as I can get it measured before we go out..
I've known Dave for a number of years so hoping it should be fast.
In the past I've used P&B sail and Rowsell, as Roger points out we are very lucky to have such a choice of good sailmakers.
In terms of price one thing to note prices can be lower if you go all dacron.
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Post by Pie-eyed on Apr 13, 2012 6:49:52 GMT
I don't really understand the thinking on this topic...
Why spend so much money and worry which sail to buy when most people freely admit they don't know how to use the control lines, adjust the top batten or their rig...
You can get an excellent dacron sail for £300 which is much easier to read and learn how to use before splashing out.
What doesn't get pointed out is that laminate sails can be hard to use.... if you gave our champs old sails they would still win as they would know how to get the best out of them.
You may get more power from a laminate but is that really what you need??
If you're not inclined to spend the time learning how to use a sail it's likely to be a frustrating investment...
Definitely a case of "It's not what you've got, it's how you use it" [/color]
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Post by paultp on Apr 13, 2012 7:37:21 GMT
My thinking is that the season before last I bought a second hand sail which at the time improved the performance of my boat, lately I've noticed that it doesn't perform quite as well so I probably need a new one.
Last time I bought a new sail was in the mid 90's at Broxbourne when a number of us bulk bought from R&J. I was a novice sailor and had no knowledge of getting a sail cut for the specifics of a boat, the helm and the type of sailing. It turned up and I went faster than with the knackered old one - so that was OK by me!
When I recently bought my new streaker sail I had to specify type of mast so I could order it - the Streaker rig is much more tightly controlled by the class than the BM so there are only a couple of permitted masts, it has no spreaders, the rig can not be adjusted on the water and so there are less variables to take into account.
I have a rough idea of what to do with the controls and am learning slowly about setting up the mast, spreaders, rig tension etc so I know it is preferable to get a sail that matches the rig I have rather than just get anything and mess about.
Having looked at prices I can't see where you can get a dacron sail for £300 for any boat let alone a BM! My Streaker dacron was £340 in P&B's sale during the winter, I bought dacron because it lasts longer and is known to perform better on the Streakers at my home club.
I'm a tight careful Yorkshireman. If I'm going to buy a new sail I want to get the best I can for my money and order one that suits my boat and me. In order to do that I'm going to ask for opinions on where to buy and advice on what to ask for before tearfully parting with any money.
I'm learning just from starting this topic so it is well worth it for me.
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Post by Pie-eyed on Apr 13, 2012 7:55:03 GMT
Haven't seen Richard ( R & J ) yet this year but i'm off to see him next week. Pretty sure he will make you a dacron sail for nearer £300 than £400 to your specifications.
Extremely knowledgeable about BM sails having been making them for years and worked with Brian Skinner who experimented endlessly with them.
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Post by graham7 on Apr 13, 2012 12:04:45 GMT
Paul
Sail Register do excellent BM sails from the patterns I developed with Red Eye,their materials and workmanship are first class and prices are always very keen and he is kind of near to you in t north.Highly recommended and underated
Regards
Graham
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Post by Pie-eyed on Apr 13, 2012 13:52:39 GMT
R & J Sails Current BM Price List
Dacron£295
Polycote £360
Mylar Lam £375
Kevlar £500
With bag and battens
Also happy to 'slim down' an old sail for £100
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